Shrink Wrap Supreme

6/20/2011

In response to PhD’s first post, frequent reader and insightful commenter, Lidia, wrote the following thoughts. Some of this appeared as a comment, and some came later in an email. Her views on narcissism are worth a close read. She begins here by replying to PhD on the issue of intelligence and malignant narcissism:

- Rather than her narcissism masking Sarah's intelligence, I'd say an opposite case can be made: that her narcissism has helped her hide her learning disabilities. Her enormous paranoia, bluster, defensive cunning, and manipulation of those around her through fear has certainly provided a shield beyond which few people have dared to investigate. If she actually is in possession of a college degree, or even a high-school diploma, I wonder to what extent they may have been issued just to kick Sarah down the road and let her be someone else's problem.

- While "acquired narcissism" is an interesting hypothesis, I see Sarah as too firmly rooted in her malady: she will never admit error or weakness (see Tuscon), and so she will never seek or submit to therapy. I could see Bristol, though, as having an acquired form of narcissism. It's not apparent that she expresses the same maniacal insistence on omnipotent AGENCY that Sarah exhibits. Bristol seems more conflicted in her behaviors, and she shows genuine tenderness towards the babies and toddlers that her mother is constitutionally incapable of, as we can tell from Sarah's body language. I can see that Bristol may have adopted her narcissism as a means of survival in Sarah's world: the world to which Sarah has bound her.

- We can never let our guard down around Palin, because she is capable of anything. To have her faults recognized, or to be challenged either publicly or privately, is a matter of (psychic) life and death for her. It really is.

- I believe I have, in my extended family, two narcissists or psychopath/sociopaths, father and son. The father is marginally functional (can often "pass" for normal), the son less so. I believe this is a genetic condition, as there is a history of mental disorders in the father's side of the family, including a bi-polar dx and a murder/suicide. An experienced psychologist brought in to deal with the son told the family that therapy would be a waste of time: that the son would merely turn it into a game of manipulating the therapist. This is "unofficial", of course, because it is apparently unethical, or at least politically incorrect, to diagnose certain types of mental illness in minors. I have experienced the son's manipulation first hand over a number of years, so I feel the therapist is correct. The boy must always be the one to initiate or conclude any activity or conversation that takes place, even ones in which he is not directly involved. It's quite uncanny and you may not even notice it being with him for a day or even two. But then you see it in every. single. comportment: He MUST have total control. He routinely attacks and bites teachers, the psychologists and aides, and even the principal (he's 10) when he doesn't get his way. He'll leave class, march to the principal's office and demand that his teacher be fired (because she's not doing what HE wants her to do, she is "broken" and must be done away with). I'm amazed they still allow him in the (regular public) school. This is NOT generic "spoiled brat" behavior: he'll demand ice cream, and if given it, he'll throw it in your face and spit at you if he decides it isn't the right flavor, or it's not in the right color cup. He loves to fuck with people's heads and 'trick' them. He is… Insane. He has been like this from birth! As an infant, he was very hard to feed, because he was always angry and agitated. He never slept. At the age of two, he announced that he was God. I am convinced that he is just "wired differently".

The father in "my" NPD duo is a coward; he'll bluster a while and then turn tail. He's told me he "would kill me" (this is just in normal conversation, because I disagreed with him about some political or social policy, I can't even remember what it was… it wasn't a personal conversation, anyway, because he doesn't really "do" personal conversations; he makes pronouncements). He then precised (since he's a lawyer now) "I WOULDN'T kill you, but I would LIKE TO kill you". Then he ran upstairs like a little kid! I didn't know whether to laugh or to call the police. The son is more fearless (will run away from home) and is physically dangerous (will punch, bite, head-butt, kick, throw hammers, etc.) and I don't see where his limits are, so I try to steer clear of him. In both cases, though, being thwarted in any way is interpreted as an attack on their very existence. As I said earlier, it's a matter of "life and death" as far as their perception is concerned, from what I can tell.

- There's a surprising number of commenters on these blogs who have run across narcissists in their own lives, and I think that's exactly why we have the strong opinions about her that most of us do: because we know she will never stop. Never. - We accept that children can be born with a club foot, or with an inherited blood disease. Why are we so skittish about diagnosing a clearly diseased brain? Each physical mutation is a potential evolution. Arguably, the more organic narcissists and psychopaths succeed in reproducing, the more of them there'll be.

- If you haven't had to interact with someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you aren't quite prepared for how strangely they can act (as Sarah does, oftentimes against their own good). And collectively we don't really realize how many of these sociopaths or personality-disordered types there are out there.

- I'm sure "PhD" would concur that you have to consider the whole person, and that while narcissists have a number of frustrating and (in my opinion, irredeemable) common traits, they still are individuals with something of a (well-hidden) "personality" and can be funny/boring, cowardly/fearless, stupid/intelligent, etc. The vast majority aren't going to be violent serial killers, most will end up just being the petty tyrants we sometime run into in our day-to-day lives (though the damage they do to those close to them is still vast). What they can't be is loving, as far as I can tell. They can be needy, which is probably often mistaken for love, and which allows them to bring and trap sane people into their parasitic life-support system.

- A commenter wrote objecting to Sarah's being singled out. It's true, there are a lot of other sociopaths out there, many of them functioning at the highest levels of government and of business. It sounds like an exaggeration to say so, but I would go on record stating that—as a lay person—I'd regard Dick Cheney and GWB as sociopaths. Banksters like Hank Paulson and Dick Fuld, those sorts… I think Roger Ailes and Rush Limbaugh are sociopathic narcissists. Have you read the latest Rolling Stone piece on Ailes? He's not a mentally sound individual; he's similar to Sarah, just with far greater intelligence, and a greater capacity to mold the world around him to suit himself. Cheney and Ailes don't need to personally head-butt people to get their way; they can ensure far more violence and mayhem with what they are doing now, which is perfectly evil, yet "legal" (in at least some cases).

The commenter mentioned Anna Wintour, who, yes, seems to be a narcissist. But the difference between Anna Wintour and Sarah Palin is that Anna Wintour isn't expecting that we give her control of a nuclear arsenal. A large segment of the population can ignore Ms. Wintour, but Mr. Ailes, among others, is not allowing us to ignore Mrs. Palin.

- I know some people think it is irresponsible to speculate about these individuals, but with the years of photos and videos and transcripts… all the unguarded moments… I think we have more material on Sarah than any therapist would get out of a normal patient showing up once a week and revealing what they choose to reveal. Of course, I'm not knocking therapists; I'm sure they know which sorts of questions to ask to dig deeper… it's just that I don't think we need to wait for an in-person-expert's opinion to figure out that Sarah is seriously mentally ill, and a pathological node of constant chaos and toxicity in the life of her family, and unfortunately in the life of our nation.

Thank you again, Lidia, for providing us with this thought-provoking discussion.

Point of Clarification re "PhD"

6/20/2011 01:50:09

The person identified as "PhD" in this posting is not "mistah charley, ph.d." To be entirely candid, I sort of resent that poster taking "PhD" as her screenname - it's a little bit like the Mormons wanting to be identified as "The Church of Jesus Christ." Maybe they are, in their opinion, but they aren't the ONLY one; in the same way, "PhD" may well have the academic degree she claims, but there are probably several others commenting here who are also entitled to use these letters. (Specifically, I know of two - myself and jk; and then there's Brad Scharlott and Hugo Schwyzer; et al.)

---with piled higher and deeper best wishes,
mistah charley, ph.d.

Kallie in Texas

6/20/2011 01:52:08

Thank you. Excellent post.

DebinOH

6/20/2011 02:49:14

You left out Glenn Beck;)

I think to some degree we all are narcissistic. Some of us just are more aware of it and are able to nip it in the bud. So is narcissism alone just as bad? Let's face it you have to be pretty narcissistic to want to be a leader. We probably wouldn't have any leaders if they didn't have a healthy dose of it. So can it be used for good as well?

I have been a leader and what helps me most is evaluating people and their skills and I am also anal about being organized which also helps. I realize these skills are helpful but am I being narcissistic when I admit that I am better at these skills than other people? However, at the same time I know when I am in over my head and I DON'T let myself become surrounded by "yes" men. I also listen to people.

Where SP & I part ways is KNOWING without a doubt that I don't know enough about everything that would make you effective to be the president of the U.S. or the governor of a state. She lacks this self-awareness. Is that where her narcissism takes over or is it because she does have some sociopath tendencies?

Not that we see everything in her life but I do agree that she doesn't seem to have "real" feelings for her kids. What really stood out to me recently was when she was on her recent "tour". There were reporters with their hands in front of Piper's face keeping her out of her mother's way. Would any of us here let someone do that to your child?

Maybe that is why she doesn't come out with the birth certificate (if there is one). She really doesn't know that this is harming her kids? She doesn't realize how bizarre all the things she says are? Maybe she really doesn't see or know that her actions are harmful? There are so many instances that show she clearly lacks empathy and I don't see evidence that she truly has sympathy for people.

I say that because of her "cookie" trip with Franklin Graham. I say that because of her photo ops recently in the tornado area and in Haiti. How anyone could just go there and not be HIT how awful and devastated these areas are. Hell, how could you not want to stay and help?

I don't know but all of the things we all know do not make her presidential material. I don't even think she should be a PTA mom...........

I am apologizing in advance for any errors. I tend to think faster than I can type and I can type quickly;)

Leona

6/20/2011 03:08:49

I would agree that Palin exhibits the behaviors of a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I have a relative who exhibits many of the same behaviors: the need to be right all the time, the need to control, the need for attention, the complete lack of interest and care for anyone else. The only way to deal with such people is to cut off their narcissistic supply. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of patsies out there who act as if Palin is their personal savior. The way they feed her narcissistic appetite, it will be awhile before she goes hungry.

Lisa

6/20/2011 03:35:37

You forgot Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Clinton is the obvious. Obama is like Sarah, someone handed EVERYTHING to him politically, who rose up the ladder with serendipity on his side. He'll lie to your face for votes, he'll pull the race card and accuse others of doing the same. These aren't sound leaders. Clinton may have an ORG that benefits the world, but I guarantee he uses it to bolster his self esteem and ego.

CLF

6/20/2011 03:47:41

Unless you are a professional diagnosing a patient, labeling someone a “narcissist” or “sociopath” serves no purpose other than to make yourself feel morally superior.

If you seriously believe Cheney and George W. Bush are sociopaths, then you should have no trouble applying the same label to our current president.

Mr. Obama is outbushing Bush. He’s waging an illegal war against Libya without seeking congressional approval and contrary to the advice of his Attorney General, the Office of Legal Counsel, and the Department of Defense’s legal counsel.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/24/obama_s_unconstitutional_war
http://www.salon.com/news/libya/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2011/06/18/libya

Mr. Obama’s excursion into Libya has earned him neocon support from the likes of bloodthirsty Bill Krystol.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0611/Kristol_Abrams_Kagan_letter_presses_House_GOP_to_back_Libya_mission.html

And Charles Krauthammer.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/188012/krauthammers-take/nro-staff

His terrorism policies have won him praise from Dick Cheney.

http://www.nbcuniversal.presscentre.com/content/detail.aspx?ReleaseID=3285&NewsAreaId=2

Among Obama’s policies: indefinite detention without trial, renditions, due-process free assassinations of *American citizens*, and an aggressive war against government whistleblowers.

He has extended the Patriot Act and cracked down on civil liberties. As Keith Olberman noted: “President Obama‘s Justice Department now is not just defending Bush officials from lawsuits surrounding National Security Agency domestic spying, but seeking to expand the government's authority by making it immune from any legal challenge regarding wiretapping -- ever.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30109453/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/t/countdown-keith-olbermann-tuesday-april/

But hey, it’s a lot more fun to devote time and energy to proving a pregnancy hoax by a colorful political grifter who has *no chance of ever winning the presidency* than to focus on the actions and policies of the *current* White House occupant who will most likely will win re-election.

mistah charley, ph.d. link

6/20/2011 04:08:36

CLF - you're really trying to harsh the mellow, aren't you?

on the one hand, this is old news - it was predicted in july 2008 -

http://fafblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/change-you-can-suspend-your-disbelief.html

and on the other hand, haven't you seen the video of obama comforting a crying baby, linked at some other anti-palin sites

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WPtEGOp5rI

Conscious at last

6/20/2011 04:27:06

Oh dear, it looks like we are having a bit of a free-for-all here. I think Lidia's comments are both profound, provocative and highly significant after the previous (non-dance) thread. There are many places for the conversation to go.

(Chuckle)... but imprecision isn't going to help anyone. If you disagree with, eg. Clinton, Obama, that doesn't necessarily make them sociopaths. There has been a running two year conversation about Mrs. Palin's personality manifestations. The purpose of the conversation was to help those of us who were shocked as we realized that she pulled off the fake pregnancy hoax. We needed to understand how such a person functions-- so we explored. Those with professional and personal understanding of these experiences shared their wisdom with us. It's been a very rich process. We are not playing at this folks.

So, if some of you think you are adding to the conversation by calling anyone you don't happen to like a psychopath or a narcissist- well, have fun with that. But you see, those of us who have been in this conversation for a while will tell you that you've just revealed yourself as a juvenile thinker. If you really wish to learn and to grow, read before you react and think before you type.

K.M.R

6/20/2011 04:54:45

Hmm...
I wondering how to comment on this important subject when I agree with much of what Lidia has passionately shared?

But also, too...
I'm thinking it's a dangerous slippery slope to make broad biased assumptions about anyone who might be considered other than normal.

it's true...
And an understatement at that, to exclaim that Sarah Palin is a textbook example of someone who is very disturbed.

True too,
Her personality type does bring terror into the lives of all of those they touch (I've been there personally with a family member).

But...
We can't, I don't think, blatantly diagnose anyone without also expecting some rather risky consequences if this kind of identification catches on.

Then again...
I don't want her anywhere near the highest office in USA.

In the end,
I'm clueless as to how to address this personality disorder business any other than the way it has been here.

Very tricky indeed.

Ottoline

6/20/2011 05:17:24

It may be interesting to some to try to understand Palin, but not for me. A little, but not much. I am convinced that there is some number of highly relevant BIG things (childhood, big-money enablers, something else we have never even imagined?) we do not know about this equation, so detailed speculation lack some key data points.

But we do know enough to hope that her hoax will be revealed and she will leave our national discourse. Because it seems clear that Palin will never be held accountable for her various other crimes -- like participating with the RNC to make her gov-campaign ad, as Dunn revealed. That's a minor crime compared to all the far more serious others we have good reason to suspect.

Martha Stewart lied and got 6 mo. Palin and daughter perjured themselves, sent a kid to jail, and zip consequences for Palin. Zip reporting about it too.

It is her actions rather than her motives that interest me right now. Later, I might read a book on her motives, if the author seems well positioned to know.

mumimor

6/20/2011 05:38:36

This discussion is going in a difficult direction, and I think I agree with K.M.R. that part of this comes out of the nature of the post. I've written before that I think mental-health diagnosis from afar is risky business, not least because it is very difficult even close-up, and today we can see it. Personally, I strongly disagree with some of the above comments, and I have personal experiences similar to Lidia's, so I agree with a lot of what she writes. But what authority do I have to claim Lidia's reasoning is better than the other commenters?

Arguments are possible when it comes to facts.
"The wild ride" is barely possible, and if it happened, it would be irresponsible on so many dimensions, it would be reasonable to doubt Palin's ability to govern.
Quitting at half-term seems unreliable.
Lies, and lies and lies, about even the smallest irrelevant issues seems unreliable.
Campaigning on the basis of Christian and family values, and parading ones family as an example while the same family is almost laughably f***ed up is hypocritical.
All of the above is something everyone can see. If someone denies the reality of any of these issues, they are straight out lying - but maybe to themselves as well as the rest of us. If they acknowledge it all is there, but still choose Palin, we can have a discussion. Some people will say, yes, I can see Palin is lying, but all politicians lie, and I trust her basic values more. Well, that is a point of view, and it can lead to a discussion of those values.

K.M.R

6/20/2011 05:52:29

I think it's always good to question someone who is in the public eye and thinking of running for office, and to do it as mumimor has pointed out. In fact I think it's critical.

I also think it's smart to try to understand what makes people tick.

That said, it is in my interpretation that the brain with all complexity is a little more complicated than we can understand.

I just don´t want to go through life wondering who has a personality disorder or who does not.
I´ll continue to categorize people as wise or stupid because of their actions. It has always worked fine so far for me.

My concern is that to classify someone/anyone with a personality disorder, and expect that that labeling will fix anything, is a very dangerous idea and is essentially fascist.

Ottoline

6/20/2011 06:11:17

I want to add how useful and interesting Lidia's comments have been over the long slog. To say nothing of her terrific videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidia17up#p/a/u/0/I9ZtzPI2OMw

It's the high quality of your post here, Lidia, that helps me clarify my own thoughts. Thank you!

FrostyAK

6/20/2011 06:18:10

I agree with those who have said that diagnosing from afar is a slippery slope. That said, I believe she shows a number of different mental health issues, all accumulated into the one person.

I have been instrumental in diagnosing 2 abused children with multiple personality disorder. At one time I was leaning totally in that direction with $palin. I have not given it up entirely, though many other considerations have entered the picture as well. In $palin there seem to be definite trends toward malignant narcissism, paranoia, and at least sociopathic if not psychopathic tendencies.

People with serious mental health issues seldom present with only one 'diagnosis', but with a main problem and a multitude of peripheral problems.

Though I despise $Palin on a visceral level, I really think she is a 'tool' being used by those with BIG money to throw a monkey wrench into our Democratic Republic. The mental health issues make it easier to USE her for their purposes.

Does she have any responsibility for being said 'tool'? Absolutely, she wallows in it, and gets lots of money for it. Though if seriously enough mentally ill, her responsibility pales in comparison to that of the puppet masters.

viola link

6/20/2011 06:25:38

Audrey of PalinsDeceptions would never allow any diagnosing of SP. At that time, her editing of those particular comments really bugged me, because I was trying to understand what it was about SP that frightened me so. Now, years later and plenty of bizarre behavior later, I have my own explanation which, depending on my mood, may or may not include narcissism, sexual abuse, mind control, and multiple personalities. Oh, and I forgot, drugs. In the end, whatever internal arrangement motors SP's speech patterns, sexual innuendos, tongue-flicking, quitting, and otherwise inappropriate behavior-- I just know it aint good.

And now, what I really care about, is how does she get away with it on a national stage?

GuildedAge

6/20/2011 07:22:07

I don't know about the above post. You're talking about a woman who went from being a PAINFULLY shy, blushes-when-she-opens-her-mouth child and teen to Ms Mouth who will call anyone out.

She incredibly down to earth in private. I don't biu narcissism as a Sarah trait as I would other public figures and celebs. But then again, I've met her.

curiouser

6/20/2011 07:29:07

I appreciate Lidia's description of how Sarah has used her narcissism to cover for her deficiencies. But I don't know how we can possibly know the nature of those deficiencies, whether they're learning disabilities, cognitive disorders, a low IQ, or something altogether different.

As for Bristol, I've seen no evidence of narcissistic disorder. I have seen a young woman who was given a script to follow which included lies. There are several possible reasons why she felt compelled to comply with her mother's wishes and follow the script that have nothing to do with narcissism. The simplest explanation is a deep desire to be accepted by her mother.

While I'm comfortable with the NPD diagnosis for Sarah, I'm not comfortable with using the term sociopath or psychopath for her and, especially, for others. I haven't recovered from reading through the comment section on the thread from a few days ago and have more processing to do before commenting further.

lilly lily

6/20/2011 07:46:20

Look, we don't know what she is underneath that chutzpah, from all the lies she tells.

No shame.

A shy, blushing and retiring girl doesn't get called "Sarah Barracuda."

Self serving remarks so it could be "lou" posting.

A shy retiring girl who blushes isn't nicknamed "Sarah Barracuda."

Bristol seems to be pretyy much using her mother tenplate in her public life.

Her self portayal in her memoir as a Straight A student, and shy virgin who was going to wait till marriage for sex is pure comedy if it wasn't so sad and self delusional. Saying it doesn't make it so Bristol.

A Palin specialty.

Victim.

curiouser

6/20/2011 08:22:26

OT @rubbernecking, if you're around - I'm intrigued by the non-troll agenda categories you suggested a few days ago. I'm not sure I completely understand or agree but it's quite thought-provoking and seems worth exploring if we're strong enough for the self-analysis. I hope you'll continue to comment.

Lidia17

6/20/2011 08:23:03

DebinOH, merely having a healthy self-regard and having accomplishments which back that up is in a different realm from the type of narcissism I am talking about.

I found a very good primer on narcissists here: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html. The whole site is excellent.

--
@CLF, this is not a campaign to vote on whose political policies are best: Obama’s continuance in restricting civil liberties versus Bush’s body count in Iraq; I am talking about personal affects that seem hinky to me: UNcanny.
Did Obama blow up frogs for fun? Does he make jokes about struggling families and weapons of mass destruction? Did he mock the last words of a person on death row whose life was in his hands?
Did Bill Clinton shoot his friend in the face, almost killing him, and then not apologize, but instead left the friend apologizing to HIM?
These are the kind of twisted. personal, things that, to me, show that someone is prey to more than just arrogance or poor impulse control, and which bring me to use the words I do. You can make your own claims about people whom I did not mention and I will certainly consider them.
--
@K.M.R., There are no "risky consequences" to identifying maleficent beings. On the contrary, the risk is in pretending that they may be normal.
Furthermore, I don’t see how the truth itself can be fascist. There is something mentally wrong with Mrs. Palin. I don’t care what label you do or do not want to use: even psychiatrists are constantly changing the labels they use. If I categorize someone as “stupid”, as you might, I am asserting that they are of sub-normal intelligence. How is that more- or less-morally-defensible than calling someone “insane”?
I would like to come to terms with what some commenters are saying—that they would rather wait for some vague “authority” to tell them it’s ok to state what they know already in their own hearts is true—but I find it hard to do that. I see how Sarah is. We all do. Everyone is just too nice or frightened or polite or corrupt or tolerant or financially interested or politically correct to say so. Barring that, if anyone is not convinced that Sarah is “wired differently” (something that Sarah and her family openly acknowledge), they should explain why.
I don’t expect labeling to “fix” anything. The whole system is quite obviously broken. Since 2008, I have chosen not to mince words while an insane person is considered presidential material, and continues to be in some public quarters. I would just like to save people a lot of time and trouble in trying to parse and justify Sarah’s behaviors and choices which, if you’ll notice, often continue to be evaluated in the media as though she were a rational person. I don’t have any power over Sarah Palin, so she does not need to be saved from me, except to the extent that I might invite people to see her in the light that I do.
There’s a certain percentage of people in this world who are not rational or mentally healthy. Sarah Palin is one. I don’t understand why this sort of statement should be contentious, given the circumstances with which we are all familiar.
… and the thing about “wondering”… I don’t need to wonder if certain people have personality disorders. That’s largely the point. Their personalities are disordered, and I just happen to notice it. I’m not asking for this to be the case, nor by naming the thing do I call it into being.

Lidia17

6/20/2011 08:26:24

--
@Frosty AK, you say that Palin is responsible for being instrumentalized, but I tend to agree rather more with your caveat: that she is seriously mentally ill, period, and that she cannot act other than as she does. She is **compelled** to have the last word, even when it damages her (like with the Tuscon “blood libel” remarks). And, as with my relatives, you come to understand that certain choices are not, and will never be, on this type of person’s radar screen, so >>>you have to just concede that you cannot have normal expectations of them<<<. Just like some people have color-blindness, these individuals are “empathy-blind” or “human/humanity-blind”. This way of thinking about them is not fascistic; it is just pragmatic for all concerned, because you will save yourself a lot of heartaches and fights with them if you just “let them be”, as Todd does (“you just gotta let her work through it” or whatever the exact wording was of what he was reported to have told Schmidt).

--
@viola, yep… I was one of the ones who “went there” and was chastised. Nigh on three years of hand-wringing later, about “why would Palin do this or that”, here we still are, trying to convince people that something is deeply wrong with this woman. I remain mystified as to why this continues to be an uphill battle.

In another context, I found this salient quote:

The truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.
– Winston Churchill

All these years of media analysis, trying to second-guess this person, to accommodate her, to cravenly try to fit her into a “feminist” narrative, or to make her a right-wing heroine or a left-wing victim, but in the end “there she is”.

THERE. SHE. IS.

--
@curiouser, I appreciate what you are saying as far as Bristol is concerned. I had just been just riffing off of Laura’s “Ph.D.” friend’s earlier introduction of “acquired narcissism”… I’m not particularly interested in Bristol, except that I am sorry for the situation that she is in. All I said was that “I could see it…” (“it” being acquired narcissism, the mechanism of which I would be happy for “Ph. D.” to explain to us.

I don’t think Sarah has USED narcissism to cover for her deficiencies… it’s just that it happens to turn out that way. Her larger-than-life ego and her unreasonable demands and vicious poo-flinging at other people subliminally cue people to back off. The narcissists I know are the opposite of Sarah, they are practically savants, but their intense “intelligence” is shallow and they cannot apply it well to real-life scenarios.

A “sociopath” doesn’t have to be a Columbine killer. It’s just a word akin to psychopath, which means “suffering mind”. Some psychiatrists use the two words interchangeably, but:
“Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without feeling the pangs of guilt. Sociopaths are more the products of adverse environmental experiences that affect autonomic nervous system and neurological development that may lead to physiological responses similar to those of psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder is a legal/clinical label that may be applied to both psychopaths and sociopaths” (Walsh & Wu, 2008).”
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/forensic-focus/2010/07/sociopathy-vs-psychopathy/

What becomes murky is when a psychopath has a child: is that child a genetic psychopath or an “adverse environment” sociopath? Maybe future brain science will clarify. I have been using the terms loosely, I fully admit but either case could be argued for Mrs. Palin. It’s not really important to me how she is labelled, as long as she is not regarded as normal, and that her crazy lies, subterfuges, criminalities and hoaxes be revealed.

--
I hope I don’t seem to monopolize the thread, but Laura asked me to respond to comments, which I will try to do a bit each day.

curiouser

6/20/2011 09:59:53

Lida - My comment about Bristol was in response to your other sentence: "I can see that Bristol may have adopted her narcissism as a means of survival in Sarah's world: the world to which Sarah has bound her." I saw your earlier use of the term 'acquired' as identifying the category of narcissism you thought might apply to 'her [Bristol's] narcissism', not whether or not Bristol suffered from this personality disorder.

Thanks for your response.

Lidia

6/20/2011 10:17:44

Curiouser, I didn't intend to originate any speculation about Bristol: I had just been responding. The use of the term "acquired [narcissism]" is one that "Ph.D." introduced. I'm not sure whether I "believe in" such a thing or not; I imagine it is possible, but it would always be subject to the influence and parameters of the context created by others, by definition, it would seem to me.

6/20/2011 10:51:33

Thank you for this posting. There is clearly something wrong with her - for me, pointing to the too big shoes is a great example. She cannot recognize how she is viewed by others - and I don't think it is because she doesn't care (her obsession with bloggers/reporters would negate that theory).
I also don't believe the shoe incident was done on purpose to gain attention. If anyone confronted her before she walked out for a photo op in the shoes that were at least two sizes too big, I would bet that she said with a straight face that they fit just fine.
I think this is a prime reason Sarah pulled off wearing a fake pregnancy belly - those close to her have been programmed over the years to be non-confrontational because her reality is skewed and it would always be a losing argument. Would anyone have the nerve to say "something doesn't look right here" during her one month 'pregnancy'?
I don't think it is wrong to speculate about what her general problem is & I enjoy reading the opinions of others. The most thumbs-up (by far) I have ever received on a blog comment on a non-partisan site was when I mentioned Sarah Palin having some sort of mental disorder. We aren't the only ones who think there is something very off about Sarah!

DebinOH

6/20/2011 10:55:10

Lidia, Wow! Great link. Thank you so much.

I have to say after reading Bailey's book and Dunn's book + everything I know about her she reads like a textbook case of NPD. I wonder if you are born like this or it is events in your childhood?

I know that with sociopaths (and you are correct it does not mean they are killers, etc.) the ones I know have seemed to have been born this way. My girlfriend had a son who just did not understand consequences and was so impulsive.

He could work everyone he knew UNLESS he knew you were on to him. This is what always made it so confusing. He knew I wouldn't put up with his crap and he behaved for me. Yet at the same time I knew there was something else going on. For example, he was at someone's house for a sleepover and in the middle of the night (3 a.m. I believe) he decides he wants to go home. Does he tell the people he is staying with - no! Does he call his parents - no! He walked over a mile in the middle of the night. He was 12.

It never occurred to him that this was dumb and that he could have been injured, kidnapped or even gotten lost. It didn't occur to him that the parents who's house he stayed at would be freaked out when he wasn't there when they got up.

Unfortunately he is now in jail for the second time. It is very sad, but how do you "treat" someone without a conscience? They might understand what you expect of them but they can't just "get" one.

It sounds incredibly mean to even talk about him this way, but there are a lot of people this way. What do we do about them. Technically there really is something wrong with them.

This is the problem with SP. It would never occur to her that anything she does is weird. I'm not even sure she really knows that she does lie about everything - even when she is the facts. I also think that she really does believe that she has been chosen by god. To her it is the end product not how she gets there.

I don't know how she deludes the people around her though. Yes, she is great at charming people in real life, but as we can see it doesn't last too long.

Let's just hope she doesn't put her hat in the ring!

jeff

6/20/2011 12:22:14

I had similar thoughts to Lidia when I read the Rolling Stone article on Roger Ailes recently. What struck me as so sad is that, given his advanced age and the success Ailes has enjoyed in programming and making $$$, he and his wife are both two of the most paranoid, small-minded persons that I've ever heard of. They are both control-freaks who are too busy spying on their staff and trying to control gossip that they certainly aren't experiencing the joy and peace in their senior years that a lifetime of successful work should allow.

In a general sense, I wouldn't agree that every leader is narcissistic, but I can see where narcissists might be over-represented in positions of leadership.

Ability to lead is often a function of competence, preparation, and desire to leverage one's own ability through the abilities of others.

A good leader is confident enough to surround him/herself with other mature, competent professionals whose knowledge in particular areas might exceed his own.

But confidence in one's own ability can be mis-identified by others as cockiness, narcissism, or any other negative trait by those who are incompetent, immature, jealous, unable to perform on a team with multiple personalities, unskilled or many other reasons that might be the source of the other person's inability to achieve success.

In a nutshell, winners solve problems; losers worry about assigning blame to others or whine and make excuses.

Winners are not afraid to make bold decisions and take responsibility, while losers will drag their feet and might form a committee to seek a solution to shelter themselves from accountability.

Losers are more concerned in seeking the limelight and taking credit for the success of a team. Winners are more concerned about making the project successful and sharing the credit with the team to build loyal, confident, team members who are enthusiastic about tackling the next project together with the team.

This is obviously an over-generalization, but it is a reflection of the behavior consistently exhibited by "winners and losers" when faced with adversity or success.

Life isn't the zero-sum game that dictates a bad performer's behavior. It is how the individual manages a complex situation with multiple outcomes under stress and deadlines that determines the ability to perform as a leader or in a key role on a team.

notafaux

6/20/2011 15:18:21

I've enjoyed Lidia's post and the comments, which are stimulating and thought-provoking. But I have a question, which was raised at the outset by mistah charley, phd. and still remains unanswered: Who is "PhD"? I missed that part, I guess. Is "PhD" Hugo Schwyzer, who raised such a ruckus with an earlier post? Sorry to be so dense--I'm only ABD, i.e., all but dissertation :)

curiouser

6/20/2011 15:22:37

notafaux - PhD is the psychologist Laura interviewed for the 5/28 Shrink Wrap Supreme post.

http://www.lauranovakauthor.com/1/post/2011/05/shrink-wrap-supreme.html

Gingerboycat

6/20/2011 15:48:45

"Diagnosing someone from afar is a slipperty slope." Ok.

But we don't have to diagnose Sarah Palin medically, or be a medical professional. If we are laymen, we don't need to call it narcissism or whatever, we don't have to say that she may have this disorder or that disorder.

It is enough that any sane person with a brain and two eyes can see that there is something which is just not right about her.

Any normal person with a normal tolerance and sense of shame and embarrassment would curl up under the bed after being ridiculed the way she has been. But no, as I have seen described somewhere else, she just ploughs maniacally on. There is something not right about this person.

notafaux

6/20/2011 16:20:05

@curiouser. Thanks, I missed that one. Will be sure to take a look and get up to speed.

K.M.R

6/20/2011 19:58:46

Please don't misunderstand my concerns about the labeling. I'm with you Lidia and all who have been watching Sarah from the start, as I have been.
Suppose we decided someone was a terrorist. A label it is and a dangerous one that may be obvious. But that term can be thrown at anyone we disagree with.
I'm just saying we need to be extra careful and discerning and moreso when it comes to medical accusations.

I've determined that Sarah is very ill and near the edge of insanity. I'm just hesitant to publicly name it and use that diagnosis as a reason to throw her, or anyone, to the wolves because of how their brain functions.
I do think her illness should be talked about but as I said, it's tricky territory when it comes to person's psychological state.

Pointing to her crazy actions, critiquing her fake pregnancy, her non-motherly ways, her pretend patriotism, her sham marriage and so-called Christian behavior (etc., etc.) is a better way to bring her down.

DebinOH

6/20/2011 22:51:51

KMR - I don't think we have to worry about a mental health diagnosis bringing her down because the people who love her think she is great! None of the things you mentioned will bring her down with her bots. There is something about them that is not quite right either.

I do think that there are some people (specially the elderly) that like her and Faux News because they really believe that these people are telling them the truth and CARE about them. We know that they are just using buzz words that strike fear and they know it.

They are scaring them and the elderly are reacting rather strongly. Fear is a great motivator. This is what is bad about the right wing, from their newspapers, the radio and Faux news they don't tell the whole truth and look how many times they don't even report what is going on? Do they even report anything that is positive?

It is sad that comedians like John Stewart, Colbert, etc. have to point out the hypocrisy. Hell, "regular" news reporters don't even seem to report the facts anymore. It is a sad state of affairs. If it weren't for the internet I would still believe whatever reporters said. The best thing EVER is being able to see the actual videos of what went on. These people can deny they said something til the cows come home but if they are on video we don't have to take their word for it anymore.

In every poll asked about what will bring SP down. I have always said she will bring herself down. There is no doubt about it and I think that since she is no longer governor it is more apparent to most people that she is one fry short of a happy meal;)

viola

6/21/2011 01:20:09

If you have ever lived with or loved a narcissist, you will have no doubt that this label/diagnosis explains Sarah Palin. As a child I cried myself to sleep wishing my mother was a true witch so people would stop telling me how beautiful, cool, fun she was. They had no idea what it was like to have a mother who only viewed her children as accessories to her glory. We were less cared for than the shoes in my mother's closet.

Once I got into therapy and finally understood my mother's behavior, I tried confronting her-- but it only strengthened her victim-hood. Anything I lobbed at her, she lobbed back, harder and crueler. My childhood was bad? Oh, my god, it was a walk in the park compared to hers! No matter how my sister and I confronted our mother, nothing penetrated the constructed fortress of self-promotion.

My mother is now 81. The narcissism is breaking down. People she's fooled for years have finally realized how they were used. My daughter, her only granddaughter, cares little for her having been competed with since the day she was born and having had all her boyfriends flirted with.

We may have to wait for the SP machine to break down. But we can keep chipping away at the exterior she's created. Cataloging and calling her down on the lies, the blatantly staged pregnancy, the inappropriate treatment of her children, her egregious non-governing that is only an opportunity to showcase herself.

(If you doubt Sarah Palin is a narcissist -- clinical or not-- just ask her about her servant's heart.)

Having a label is just a reminder of what we're dealing with. It's knowing the enemy as surely as any general in battle.

jeff

6/21/2011 05:32:25

On the lighter side...

http://wonkette.com/448008/riveting-new-bristol-palin-memoir-tells-how-to-get-pregnant-while-drunk

Before calling me a misogynistic asshole, read the comments. Then you can call me a misogynistic asshole.

FrostyAK

6/21/2011 06:05:56

Ok. Let's assume $P is extremely mentally ill. Let's also assume we do not have to label the illness in order to see the effects of the illness (we don't).

Does this mean she gets a free pass for all that she has done to damage those around her - those in her own family, those in Wasilla, those in Alaska, those around the country? Do we let her get away, once again, with claiming to be the victim in the whole scenario?

How far do we let this proceed before making HER take responsibility for all the negatives that she is and does? Will we let her destroy the world as we know it because she is a victim? Because she is seriously mentally ill?

Once again, I say it is a slippery slope to be diagnosing from afar. IMO, it is time to force her to take responsibility for the damage she has done.

Lidia17

6/21/2011 06:57:25

@JR, yes! the crazy-too-big shoes! That is an excellent example of her nuttiness. As a woman, I am trying to imagine walking around for an hour or two in high heels that don’t actually attach to my feet. The heels alone are bad enough…

I’m sure there is some kind of oddball story behind those shoes: she was fixated on a certain style, but it wasn’t available in her size…? some idol of hers wore that shoe? She shoplifted them or stole them from an enemy? It’s not like she has a lack of shoes in her wardrobe, and it’s not like she particularly cares if her shoes are appropriate for her outfits, so? She could have worn any shoe that fit. Even the fall-back red Naughty Monkeys that she loves so much… **But she didn’t.** She thought she looked spiffy. She can't process reality.

JR, you get it: people fear her immediate wrath, finding it not worthwhile to mess with her.

---
@DebinOH, you get it, too. You totally get it. With the kid that I know, the school plays dumb. They know they can’t do anything, so they all go through concern theatre: “oh! H*** can’t leave the classroom because it is a Safety Hazard!” Ok, try and stop him. Try and give him a “consequence” that matters (none do). H*** is a “rogue” and a “maverick”. :-/

Send my love to your girlfriend; I know what she is going through, at least a little, The mother of the child I’ve been describing talks quite frankly about expecting him to end up in jail.

---
@viola, my heart goes out to you. Too bad that you missed the opportunity to go "No Contact" which is really the only way to extricate yourself from the web of a narcissist. Your mother's narcissism will never "break down", I fear, but she will probably moderate her tone now that she is older and weaker and less able to afford driving anyone away. It's still all about her.

The only thing you can do is let it go. There never was any rhyme or reason to it and you are not to blame and have no control over who she is and what she does. You just have to adopt a Zen attitude about the whole thing and DISTANCE yourself from her to the extent that you can. You will probably cry more tears, but hear me: she was never the mother you needed and wanted but confronting her about this is useless because the very thing that makes her a bad mother hides this self-knowledge from her as well. Such confrontations will only hurt and frustrate you more, and will do nothing as far as she as concerned but feed a sense of being victimized. These individuals are as aliens; you just have to accept that.

---
@FrostyAK, I would LOVE to see Mrs. Palin in jail for her numerous crimes of corruption. Whether she gets a "free pass" or not from her family is up to them, but it will not make a single bit difference either way. She's already been left high and dry on her bus trip, and she'll find some way to weave a narrative that serves her regarding whatever situation she finds herself in, have no worries on that score.

Those in Wasilla must have known she was odd, so tough luck. Those in Alaska seemed not to have been paying attention, so idem.

>>>>I would say that "making her take responsibility" is something that just cannot occur, so it is pointless to wish for that.<<<<

You will never be able to "force" a narcissist to recognize that they are creating the problem. So, while it might feed or heal something in us to extract 'revenge' or to punish her, Palin is not going to give anyone the satisfaction of a real penitence, ever. We can send her to jail, but she will always be "Undefeated".

I want John McCain and ALL the media people, though, who do NOT have Mrs. Palin's insanity defense to take the heat on this. They enabled her. Otherwise she'd just be another intellectually-challenged bimbo up there in Wasilla, watching wedding reality shows and eating Taco Bell.

Sy Kottick

6/21/2011 07:18:37

Having been raised (and badly screwed up) by two fairly narcissistic parents, I heard my internal "warning bells" go off the second Sarah Palin appeared on the scene.

A few years back, I came up with a sort of "diagnostic tool" which seems to help a LOT in identifying potentially narcissistic / dangerously selfish people so I can run for the hills.

(I stumbled on it after giving dear ol' Ma the news that a major illness I was suffering from was quite possibly terminal. My mother's INSTANT and ONLY response ? "Oh, I know ALL about death. I'm nearly 80 years old !" I was -- fortunately -- speechless.)

So, here it is: during a conversation or after receiving an email or letter, I count the number of times the person has used the words "I," "me" or "mine." Then I count the number of times that person made any reference at all to ME.

With my parents, that ratio is never less than 10 "I's," "me's" or "mines" to 1 "you."

The real tragedy is that these days it seems a LOT easier to avoid my parents games than Sarah "I Me Mine" Palin's !

DebinOH

6/21/2011 08:16:47

Sy, it is too bad that you had such a mother (and father). I think that it is perfectly acceptable to write people out of your life that cause you grief. I have had to do that and it is LIBERATING! It sounds horrible but that is what it feels like.

Life is way to freaking short to spend time around people who really don't care about you except when they need something. My mother-in-law was so toxic that after 18 years of marriage I told my husband it was either her or me. My mother had just had major heart surgery and that was it. I made up my mind right then and there that I was never going to spend one minute of my life on people that were toxic.

Thankfully my husband chose me. He sees her and my kids see her but not too often. The point was that I never had to see her again. Every once in a while one of the kids will come home furious at her for something she did or said. My kids would mow her lawn and she would actually follow them around telling them weren't doing this or that right (she has a 1 acre lot). I told my husband that he better tell her to shut her mouth because I would not put up with her doing that to my kids.

Well, the more I find out about Bristol's book it is painfully obvious that she has picked up her mom's problem of blaming everyone else for all her problems. I am sure that kids have made fun of her because she is SP's daughter and I do feel sorry for her because of that. However, SP is the one who put them in the spotlight. If she had kept them all out of the spotlight they wouldn't have been talked about.

I see a lot of trouble in her children's futures. I hate to say it but telling people your boyfriend had sex with you while you were drunk and passed out is the same as saying he raped her. How is her kid going to feel that his dad is a rapist?

These kids need a LOT of help from the "outside". It is a damn shame.

jeff

6/21/2011 10:12:01

http://theperilsofpalins.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/bristletour-barefoot-and-preggers-in-americas-heartland/#comment-341

jeff

6/21/2011 10:17:25

edit the last link:

correct link: funny

http://theperilsofpalins.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/bristletour-barefoot-and-preggers-in-americas-heartland/

CA Guy

6/21/2011 10:39:41

The magic word in all this is enabling. It falls to anyone with a life that we compromise and often, we compromise with those we would normally ask politely to fuck off. Because of training, hierarchy, pecking-order, jobs for asshole bosses, parents, siblings... our worldview is skewed towards "getting along." It makes us suffer fools, gladly or not. Amplified by "PC" liberal thinking, we box ourselves into a corner of not wanting to offend on one hand and longing to scream "You are a freeking nut case!"

The sad truth is American the Stupid will follow their Palins and Bachmanns, just as Germany and Italy did theirs. Yes, they are dangerous and yes we need to be vigilant. What more blatant tidbit of mental fascism can you find, than wanting to rewrite history because you just can't deal with real world facts?

The ones above who want to cite chapter and verse of Obama's crimes or Clinton's; let's assume you are right. Are they 100% bad? 80%? Bad on Tuesdays but ok on Fridays? If you cannot see shades of gray in the character of others, you cannot see it in yourself. I think it is there you find the meaning of NPD.

6/21/2011 11:34:59

Reading excerpts from Bristol Palins new book - material for a whole new post about the Palin family dynamics.
Weird.

Viola

6/21/2011 14:05:12

Thanks, Jeff! Love the chin on the Bristle Barbie! That's just what I needed. . .

JEFF

6/21/2011 15:55:38

Hi Viola,

you ARE WELCOME. Barbie made my day in a way that GIJoe couldn't have done. Prolly bc he always tracks mud in the living room 1st thing, and then he's a bit crude. Too much time in the jungle instead of the spa will make boys a little rough around the edges.

lilly lily

6/22/2011 00:36:30

Have learned a lot from postings about Sarah Palin and her toxic family lifestyle.

Like everyone I have had my lifetimes share of toxic people.

Sooner or later we all say enough, and tell them politely to go to hell. We all have our own unique ways of handling that.

Knowing them, helps us to know others no matter what their shiny veneer and toothy smiles.

Sarah is one of that breed.

We simply will not allow her in our peoples White House, in any capacity, even it she tried to come in as Janit-R.

LOL. This morning I arrived for a lecture on Turner, and I saw the sign on the door next to the rest room for women on the Janiters closet. Janit-R..

mumimor

6/22/2011 03:46:21

http://www.mediaite.com/online/no-joke-sarah-palin-reportedly-quits-one-nation-bus-tour-halfway-through/

This link was on the Andrew Sullivan blog. (Along with other fun stuff). Read the comments if your nerves are up to it ;-)

Actually, I think SP is over. For some reason, the bus-ride worked the wrong way. Was it the footage of poor Piper, struggling to get back her mom? Or was the Paul Revere story too wild even for the Tea Party?

And then Michele Bachmann. I have this sense that when Michele Bachmann realized people were seriously considering Palin for president, she thought "hey, I can do that better", and she can. She is somewhat crazy and lying too, but she is more than half educated and she actually does her political homework. She also lives what she preaches.

So, with great relief, I will now stop stressing over Sarah Palin. I'll continue to be curious about the wild ride, but I guess with no political pressure, we'll never get the true story.

lilly lily

6/22/2011 04:43:51

I agree with mimimor, Palin is finished as a presidential front runner. She is toxic, stupid and mendatious and the public have gotten that message loud and clear.

She will become Franklin Grahams spiritual co-pilot now, and rake as much money as she can out of her deluded bots and the Fundi right wing.

Now the cover story shifts to Bristol and the carefully worded, I don't remember what happened I was too wasted with wine cooler? coolers? Sweet coolers?, and the cad was bragging instead of holding me in his arms when I woke up???

What was she thinking?. The routine of the abstinent revirginated Bristol, that I was a virgin saving myself for marriage routine.

That should go over big with the Palin bots.

Tremendous amount of discussion out there, mostly negative, of Bristol painting Levi as a base cad, not that anyone is giving Levi a pass. It takes two to tango, and Bristol has been refered to as a "slut" her own words "I'm a slut". Facebook is unforgiving. Ditto her drinking and being a stoner.

Perhaps she is telling her new cleaned up version, as it has evolved from her snagging Levi from her best friend Lanesia, (Lanesia was livid) to this version. It sounds so much better laid out as Levi chasing Bristol, and "taking advantage of an unconcious girl" of a pure living, good, Straight A grades girl who wanted to keep her virginity till marriage pregnant.

Her first experience with liquor and sex??? I doubt it.

Excuses and revisisionist history. You bet.

That interests the public out there.

Not who was or who isn't Trigs biological mama.

Brad Scharlott

6/22/2011 04:49:25

Because of a family member, I happen to know a good deal about narcissistic PD, in a clinical sense. I read a great deal about it some time ago.

I don't know enough about Sarah Palin to feel confident applying the NPD label to her based on my own insights. I have not read Dunn's book, for example. If I did, maybe I'd have a better feeling for SP's weird psyche. I find the woman so repellent that I would rather not read the Dunn book and others coming out. At the same time, I feel almost a professional obligation to take the plunge and do those readings.

Meantime, I have extraordinary respect for Lydia as a thinker and writer. Everything she wrote about NPD and SP sounds quite plausible and probably correct. I have no problem with applying such a label to SP – she clearly is not "normal." Recognizing and labeling a disorder can (if correct) provide understanding and possibly predictive power.

lilly lily

6/22/2011 05:09:21

I typed Bristol Palin raped,in google, and got 5,550,000 results in 0.41 seconds.

While people probably won't waste their money on this bit of revisionist memoirs, it is such a common teen aged rite of passage, that it has hit a nerve. And think whatever you want of her version, true or false, people are expressing their opinions, including what they think of Sarah Palin's parenting.

Mama might have dictated this version for her own ends. Sounds so much better that mama was lied to, and daughter has no idea of what happens when you shack up in a tent with a horney boy, expecting to wake up wrapped in his arms and still retain your virginity.

Laura Novak link

6/22/2011 05:12:35

I too agree with Mumimor: wouldn't it be wonderful to see the back end of Palin as she walks through that door that someone opened for her. If she ended up on the community college/rubber chicken circuit, it couldn't be soon enough for most of us! Although you are right: it will likely be the private airplane/grifter theologian circuit.

Yet, Brad, you and so many other wonderful commenters here are right in that this is a serious lesson for us: how did it get this far? how could someone so obviously "not normal", regardless of what a professional would say, get this far? Snooker so many? Fool the foolish who drool over her?

I think one has to look to Mister Charley and what he has so eloquently said about the bigger thread of all the forces dedicated to controlling the over all message and changing the course of our democracy, by putting the dolly with the pull-string in her back on stage.

Most people here smelled her from the first moment we "met" her. That's what we all have in common. Lidia put it all together so eloquently and I thank you/her for taking the time to not only send me such wonderfully worded passages, but also, too, for responding to so many commenters.

This forum is on fire and open for business. I thank you all again. You're the smartest of the smart. Also, too.

lilly lily

6/22/2011 05:32:20

It is up to 5,710,000 results.

LOL while reading a right site which is ready to string Levi up. One person comments on their son TRIG. ON A RIGHT WING SITE.

In a way all roads lead to Rome, or in this case, possibly it will lead to who is the biological mother of TRIG?

Allie

6/22/2011 07:08:25

I've really enjoyed the discussion.

For a little perspective, it might be helpful for some to remember that none of us is going to be submitting a bill to the insurance company with a psychiatric diagnosis of Sarah Palin. We aren't going to document in a chart her mental diagnosis and send it down to medical records.

I think it is reasonable to apply our own experiences and insights and education into trying to understand whether a vice-presidential candidate who now has the fire-in-the-belly aspirations of the presidency possesses the personal and professional characteristics that would be a benefit or a detriment for our country.

Looking at her personality traits helps to assess the veracity of her pregnancy story, a story blatantly used to manipulate voters. If we had solid evidence of a truth-telling pattern, the pregnancy rumors would long ago have been put to rest. However, the story fell apart in about five seconds because everywhere you turned there was something odd, a half-truth, a puzzling explanation, an outright falsehood and the weirdest baby bump in history all leading to a story that didn't add up. Did looking into it further lead to the discovery that this was someone for whom her word was her bond? Nope. It was the opposite. I think it is reasonable to wonder what the hell is going on?

Lidia17

6/22/2011 07:30:17

Thanks to Laura for recognizing that discussions of this type are worthy of airing. I hope she and Brad continue to monitor the media and help us figure out HOW such aberrations can go, not just unnoticed, but actively sandbagged.

I hope Laura might delve more into the fake-feminism movement that Hugo seems to ascribe to, and which has bolstered Sarah's narrative through corrupt players in the NOW. I'm concerned that the interests behind the scenes will simply shift to Bachmann as a "female redeemer" model, whose "walking the walk" has very very anti-feminist ends.

Brad is quite "politic" in choosing to steer clear of pronouncing on Palin's mental state, but his use of the word "repellent" says it all, to me: this is the natural reaction to a predator.

========
As far as Bristol is concerned, it's pointless to entertain her, as she is as full of lies as her mother. For some reason they have decided to make Levi out to be the devil himself, yet…

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7835/3717322645907f0bcdf1.jpg

Notice the wedding ring on Levi's finger. I don't know when this photo was taken, but it was before the RNC, for certain.

mumimor

6/22/2011 07:30:35

Today, I had to manage some stuff with one of those close family members I have that are crazy. This relative has a bunch of diagnoses, the thing is, it won't make much of a difference unless she kills someone (and obviously, we all hope she will will never go there).
But in this context, what I want to say is that naturally I love my relative, and she has a lot of sweet sides to her. The business thing I have to manage with her will go awry and we will lose money. But in our family we are used to that. In this particular case we have been so careful it may get get better than planned.
Just to say: the Christian way is to include and forgive, and even though I am atheist, my family is not. And anyway I agree.
However, I would never vote for someone like my relative. Politics is a whole different story, and confusing private values with public is not good.

lilly lily

6/22/2011 07:46:43

Today for the first time I truly feel that Palins big joy ride is finished.

Her version of Paul Revere and his ride is burned in peoples memory. Almost a folk talke now. It took a bit of time, but it seems her bus tour is kaput.

Her trip to Dafur is cancelled.

She is quiet for a change.

Bristols memoirs are backfiring.

I think our national nitemare is comeing to a close, and Sarah Palin will be old stale history by next year.

lilly lily

6/22/2011 07:48:42

Didn't realize I didn't put in my e-mail.

I wrote. I think it is over.

Our national nitemare is coming to an end.

I think Sarah Palins goose is cooked.

Stick a fork in her, I think she is done.

Lidia17

6/22/2011 09:57:35

mumimor, I hope things go as well as can be hoped for with your crazy relative. When you say "we" will lose money… I would act to insulate yourself from this as far as humanly possible. You may end up being on the hook for far more than you have bargained for; don't assume that you have the dimensions of the situation firmly under control.

As far as "Christians" are concerned… well, funny you should bring that up, because the mother of the boy in my accounts became —directly on account of him— a born-again, Rapture-Ready™®-type Christian. And now she is convinced that the boy is possessed by demons. She also now tends to defend more of his behaviors. I see the kid as acting the same way as before, whereas she has instead decided that significant changes have accompanied her Christian conversion.

I guess this is a natural protective device: the kid's plight isn't HER fault, it's SATAN's fault, with the child being merely the innocent victim of his parents' lack of Christian faith. You know, the Bible says that the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the children. so… There you go!! Perfectly understandable!! Explains everything!!

In terms of private vs. public values, I don't agree that there is such a bright line. I will say that this now-RWNJ mother finds it possible to excuse every obnoxious behavior under the sun, as long as it has been committed by conservative "Christians" like Larry Craig and Ted Haggard. She doesn't concern herself too much with the wrecked families left behind expressly BECAUSE of these sick individuals' real or feigned extremist religious dogmatism… (maybe because she counts herself among the "deserving" wreckage here?). Oh no! We have to pray for brother Larry and brother Ted and brother Ensign and brother Sanford and brother Gingrich and support them in their difficulties… [Praying for brother Clinton, not so much…]

mumimor, you can forgive psychopaths if you need to, but I think that is based on what *you* need, which is fine if that is what works for you. I personally cannot "forgive" transgressions that a person has no intention of acknowledging, much less redeeming or repenting of. Forgiveness is not something that they sincerely seek nor sincerely appreciate, anyway, since it puts them in a subordinate position. So I prefer to use the word "acceptance".

Forgiveness is an act that comes from a place of power, I think, and we have no power in the face of these beings, except the power to avoid them.

mumimor

6/22/2011 16:39:33

Lidia, thanks for your insight.
We are very careful when dealing with our relative, we've always had her! And some of my other relatives are scared. Personally, I avoid her when she goes off at something, but I try to "contain" her when she is relatively normal. This is because I believe sane people do have power.

In my professional life, I was recently confronted with a sociopath. I called him little-Cheney, because there was no lie he wouldn't use, no devious or criminal method he wouldn't apply in order to get power. He convinced a board he was on that they should take over my business, which was flailing at the time. His plan was to close us down completely, but he was claiming he could do our business better. For some time I was scared. I researched his record and found how he had broken and ruined several people. But then, thinking of my relative, I remembered that sane people are strong. The truth is strong. Lies will come apart if you keep pushing at them. Crimes will be prosecuted, though it goes slowly.
These people play our emotions, not least fear. In little-Cheney's experience, bullying and threatening (including sexual assault) had always worked. But when we pushed back, and his own team began to realize what was really going on, they stopped him. (He didn't change, of course)
And in the end, I won. After 6 years of fighting. And my business is healthy now, too.

Lidia17

6/22/2011 22:04:18

So you've had a lot of experience, then! Sorry you had to go through all that but happy to hear you came through it and that your business is thriving.

You're right that we have the power to keep pushing at their lies and prevail over them in the world. What I meant earlier is that we don't have the power to change them through personal confrontations or "interventions" like viola described with her mom. I wasn't thinking of the aspect you were, but you are absolutely right.

d.t.

6/26/2011 20:29:23

Dear Lidia:

Thank you so much for writing this post. I think it is sometimes hard for people who have never personally known someone diagnosed with NPD to understand it as a *mental illness*. Yes, many celebrities and politicians have some degree of narcissism in their personality make-up -- but NPD takes that trait to a pathological extreme.

You say: "There's a surprising number of commenters on these blogs who have run across narcissists in their own lives, and I think that's exactly why we have the strong opinions about her that most of us do: because we know she will never stop. Never."

My siblings and I grew up with a NPD parent, and concur with this statement absolutely. No matter how many Palin lies and scandals are exposed, she will ignore them, deny them, and bluster her way through them -- unless the money and media time is finally cut off and she is *forced* to stop. The regular mechanisms of guilt and shame that cause people like Weiner or Spitzer to resign after a scandal do not function in individuals with NPD. It's the nature of this particular mental illness that those with NPD are unable to face, acknowledge, or understand the truth about themselves and their actions. *They* believe their own hype and lies -- which is why they are often such convincing liars. And you're right that being confronted with truths and proofs that don't conform to their fantasy narrative is not just awkward and embarrassing for NPD sufferers, but perceived as life-and-death threat to their whole construction of self.

Thank you for, Lydia, writing about NPD, and thank you, Laura, for providing the space for this discussion.

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