Shrink Wrap Supreme

7/15/2011

I am intrigued by the question of who exactly enables people who appear to wreak havoc all around them. I understand in the most basic terms that narcissists and sociopaths are by their very nature seductive. I mean, who would want to leave when the perks are so good: the mansions massive, the hotels suites swell, the plastic surgery provided, and the cars paid for in cash? But is that all that drives an enabler? Surely they pay a price for their loyalty. But what do they get out of it?

PhD provided me with this answer that took my thinking in a different direction:

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"Families who enable psychopathology-- i.e., borderline, sociopathy etc. This would be found in the codependent literature.

A character/personality disorder is akin to addiction. Like with the addict or alcoholic in a family system, the family organizes around them, runs interference, and unwittingly reinforces the addiction. The family is held hostage by the pathology or addiction and is seen as disloyal or abandoning for breaking with the tribe, and this could lead to survivor guilt.

The best analysis comes from the Adult Children of Alcoholic literature-- basically it's a combination of separation guilt and survival guilt all as an outcome to a dysfunctional family organized around a narcissist. In the alcoholic family the alcoholic is observable and the by-products never so clear. All the research can be extrapolated to the narcissist.

The person who gets out of an unhealthy family system while others remain mired within it may experience what is referred to as “survivor’s guilt.” This term was originally used to describe the experience of soldiers who left mates on the battlefield. This person may become overly preoccupied with fixing their families, because the thought of being happy when their families remain locked in dysfunctional ways of living can be very painful to them.

The term survivor guilt came to us originally from Darwin, who identified the phenomenon of guilt felt among those who literally survived the death of others. This concept became more familiar to us after the Holocaust, when it was observed frequently among surviving family members whose loved ones had not survived prison camps. In more recent decades, the concept of survivor guilt has broadened quite a bit (O’Connor, Berry, et al.,“Survivor Guilt, Submissive Behavior, and Evolution Theory: the Down-Side of Winning in Social Comparison,” British Journal of Medical Psychology (2000), 73, 519-530). Contemporary research shows that survivor guilt (less commonly referred to in the literature as ‘inequity guilt’ or ‘outdoing guilt’) encompasses guilt about feeling better off than others, or about any sort of advantage a person may think they have when compared with other people. For example, superior ability or greater health, wealth or happiness may cause a person to feel guilty. O’Connor, Berry, et al. propose “that survivor guilt has been selected by evolution as a psychological mechanism supporting group living (p. 519).”

In terms of why a politician's kid or movie star's off spring might have a difficult time breaking away…it’s not only the money and the lavish lifestyle but the feared punishment for being disloyal. The abandonment depression that ensues with this kind of pathology can be directed in a very punishing way. It's the fear of wounding the narcissist (or borderline) that keeps those in the family chained to the system, as well as feeling like the "crazy" one. It's their job to continue to prop the narcissist or borderline up. Those who manage to break away do so in several ways with discreet tools. The most important factor is resilience-- the ability to overcome adversity and bounce back from difficult situations. They are adaptable and amenable. Another important element is a role model, mentor, peer, teacher, coach or healthy family member. Someone to validate that the Emperor has no clothes and verify that there is indeed an Elephant in the living room."

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Fascinating food for thought. Thank you so much, PhD, for the time you’ve given us here. I really appreciate it. PhD will be available to interact in comments throughout the weekend. So please join the conversation!

78 Comments

Allie

7/15/2011 11:53:45 am

Very interesting information, PhD. While I was reading I kept thinking about that character that Timothy Hutton played in Ordinary People. Did his character have survivor's guilt? Did his behavior fit what happens when someone has survivor's guilt?

What I am curious about regarding Sarah Palin is what explains her extreme vindictiveness, which seems to have a very low threshold to trigger. Narcissists like to be admired, right? So is it a response to someone who demonstrates to her that he or she has failed to admire Sarah?

Also, do borderlines tend toward unexplained anger?

Does vindictiveness stem from anger or the admiration thing?

Laura Novak link

7/15/2011 12:15:18 pm

Great questions, Allie. And so interesting that you recall that movie in particular. That sure was a kid trapped by his mother's icy rage and loss.

And here, as you say, is the vindictiveness linked to anger with other origins, or to fury at not being properly admired? So complex for a psychologist to ascertain, or maybe not!

So much to discuss with this thread. I look forward to hearing what this post calls up for readers of this blog.

Allie

7/15/2011 12:40:00 pm

Hi Laura,

You know how 50 times a day we talk around here about Sarah's inability to tell the truth? What Andrew calls The Odd Lies of Sarah Palin? How she lies like a rug? Today, she says it's President Obama who is lying about the consequences of a default! Imagine HER accusing someone else of lying. That's rich.

This is a character trait of hers that I am really interested in. She will often make these turnaround statements about someone else that she herself has been associated with making.

I thought of it again when reviewing the Gusty video. Remember on her bus tour how she went on and on about the feds mandating rules and regs and how independents can't accept being told what to do? In that Gusty video, the very first thing she said was that the legislative session was successful because it was completed in 90 days, which was what the people MANDATED that it do. What normal person would even think of mentioning that?

Those examples show what she does often. I find that I can usually figure out what it is that is bugging her by what she complains about in others. Have you noticed that?

PhD.

7/15/2011 12:48:29 pm

Allie,

You are spot on with your thoughts about Timothy Hutton's character in Ordinary People. As a matter of fact some author's use that film as an example of what we are talking about here-- especially with respect to survivor guilt.

In terms of SP's "vindictivness," Narcissists, like Borderlines tend to go black and white, all or nothing. If someone is not with them they can be perceived as against them. If a family member leaves it is often experienced as a withholding, or worse abandonment. Often the one who has left will be punished-- with rage for example. This is why it is so hard to break away. Ultimately I think it's about the fundamental emptiness at the core that others are expected to fill. Of course that's a set up because it's an endless well of need.

janejane link

7/15/2011 01:04:01 pm

The Heath family system seems very tight. I've never seen comments from Sarah's siblings or their families in print that are other than very general. For example, a quote from one of Sarah's sisters confirming that mystery pregnancy with Trig, or anyone in the family able to provide a more balanced view of Trooper Wooten. I would expect the Palin children to parrot the family line.

Jeanette

7/15/2011 01:21:15 pm

I am not sure about the titles, but I grew up in a family with a mother who had a traumatic childhood during the depression. I had a much younger sibling and I always felt it was my responsibility to keep family functions "on track" making sure that issues that might set my mom off were avoided. Having gone through that, I can't imagine following in her footsteps.
So what makes some follow the behavior of their parent and others to go another path?

Things that might make a difference is I never had a sense of entitlement since we had little and my mom did bring me up with the feeling that I should help others. But still I just can't get my mind around Bristol choosing to mimic the behavior of her mother having experienced the impact of that behavior. I can't imagine why she would want to inflict that behavior on her child.

7/15/2011 05:25:30 pm

An excellent post. Thank you, Ph.D. And thank you, Laura.

A dysfunctional family organized around the dominant/powerful/charismatic personality of a Narcissistic parent can also be compared, in some ways, to a religious cult. Other members of the family lose their sense of themselves as autonomous beings, because they are punished (in both overt and psychologically subtle ways) for independent actions or opinions that threaten the Narcissist in any way. To leave such a family requires a great deal of personal confidence -- which is precisely the thing that's been knocked out of you by the Narcissist. Displeasing the Narcissist can result in "shunning" by the entire family...a very painful thing for anyone, let alone someone whose sense of self has been damaged by years of living under a Narcissist's control.

Then, as PhD as so eloquently pointed out, if you *do* successfully break off from a Narcissistic parent, you often have Survivor's Guilt to contend with – particularly if other siblings have been left behind, and particularly if they are younger siblings whom you have failed to “protect” from the Narcissist.

7/15/2011 05:33:17 pm

Post script:

I'd like to leave a link to an excellent article by hilzoy, on the Obsidian Wings blog, about "Why They Stay" -- which illustrates some of the reasons why people chose to stay in emotionally destructive situations.

She's writing specifically about women who stay with violent men...but I think there are a number of issues she discusses that also apply to adult children who continue to stay engaged with emotionally violent parents.

Here's the link:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/04/why-do-they-stay.html

Lidia17

7/15/2011 09:54:58 pm

In terms of vindictiveness, I think it's more subtle than just "those people aren't worshipping me; they must be punished"…

It's more like "those people are evidence (or have evidence) that the life view I have created for myself is false". So they need to be obliterated from the landscape, to improve Palin's "view", her view of herself.

It comes from a place of abysmal insecurity, and I think it's actually less "personal" than it seems. The narcissist I knew said one minute that he would kill me, and then the next day it was as though nothing untoward at all had happened. It can depend on their perception of the moment.

Notice how some of Sarah's staff went in and out of favor—sometimes it's to do with what "scene" needs to be staged at the moment: who was an obstacle versus who could further her ends from day-to-day.

I got the feeling with the Wooten thing that a lot of it was fuelled by Palin's not wanting to accept that her power as governor had its limits, and that her anger at that in itself escalated the situation and caused it to become an obsession.

Leona

7/15/2011 10:36:12 pm

Having grown up in a family with an older sibling with a severe personality disorder, and having successfully, at long last, separated with the help of a wonderful cognitive therapist, I can offer this observation. The narcissist tends to see the world, and individual people in black and white. Through the phenomenon known as "splitting", the narcissist sees each person as "good" or "bad";"friend" or "enemy"; "loyal" or "disloyal". What happened to Sarah Palin's minions while she was governor demonstrates the way splitting works. When she noticed or discovered anyone not in lockstep with her, she tended to fire them, get rid of them, etc. She is vindictive because she cannot get it out of her thinking that a person who used to be "loyal" committed the unpardonable sin of acting in a disloyal way. Frank Bailey comes to mind -- you can be sure HE won't be getting a Christmas card from the Palin family ever again! One way Sarah controls people whom she views as enemies is to go on the attack, viciously. Usually the people being attacked did nothing to elicit such a response in a normal person.

phantomimic link

7/15/2011 11:38:27 pm

This is a fascinating topic Laura. I have known some families that ended up enslaved to the whims of a family member and I have always wondered why this happened. I do agree it is a type of addiction that also involves guilt. We humans are so complicated.

I don't think the family member in question is necessarily evil but rather just a person who craves for attention (children are often like this). If this family member is in delicate health and there is a fear of worsening his/her health problems, then this gives them even more power.

I have always wondered how you break these pathological situations without harming the family (or some of the persons involved). This has probably been worked out by psychologists out there.

Brad Scharlott

7/15/2011 11:42:55 pm

Of course, in a sense journalists have become Palin's enablers, though not for the same reasons as family members.

At the Anchorage Daily News, the likely reason is fear stemming from financial anxiety. At many publications, there's probably a desire to keep the goose that lays the golden eggs (i.ie, stories that sell the publication) alive.

And at some, and I'm thinking of Fox here, a desire to protect McCain and the Republican Party from having to answer for thrusting a crazy woman into a position where she could have had access to nuclear codes.

I imagine some folks, like Steve Schmidt, the head of the McCain team, and Nicolle Wallace, a top advisor, feel tremendous guilt over what they almost brought about.

dmoreno

7/15/2011 11:52:58 pm

Very, very interesting. It is too bad more people do not understand the dynamics involving codependency. I have done tons of research on the topic being an Adult Child myself. I am learning through my fascination with SP, that the core issues causing one to self-medicate could be narcissism. I did not see that in my dad, but my son for sure. Your comment, Laura, "or to fury at not being properly admired" really struck a core with me. Codependency in dealing with a child is far different for a mother and it is truly a struggle. Thanks to the research I have done, dealing with survivor guilt has been tolerable with my father, but with my son it is truly a challenge, especially when you have a partner, my husband, to convince it is the right thing to do to keep your hands off. Thankfully the professionals validate our decision. Watching the roles play out in paylinland have fascinated me since it is on such a large scale for the whole world to see and they don't have a clue about any of it. I really feel for the kids and can see that they truly are suffering. I have read many articles pointing to genetics and the function of the brain and possible links to actually labeling addiction as a disease--it is truly fascinating. It is wonderful to know that we are getting closer to understanding the brain, but yet, we have so very far to go. Great Post

lilly lily

7/16/2011 12:03:43 am

Interesting. Palin has used her family all her life. And married a husband who seems to accept her, her mood swings, nastiness, character flaws because they enable him also to behave badly.

He too is a bully.

The kids? What choice do they have.

The sisters? I wonder. They may feel used at times, but look how important she became.

The parents. Why they are as proud as Punch for their daughter. She became governor after all, made millions when she dumped the job she hated. Of course they will continue to enable her to the maxxx. Chuch made her what she is, if she isn't a bad seed by natures design.

As far as eeny meeny miney moe, whichever Trig survived, round ear, ruffle eared or elf or shovel eared. Well, what choice does HE have in it all.

He will never know.

pam

7/16/2011 12:25:17 am

I so enjoy coming to this site to read all the well stated information about the whole Palin clan. What I don't understand is why more people don't see the craziness. Maybe it is just the noisy minority that keeps her name alive and well. Maybe it is just to sell stories and papers and magazines. But why is it that so many people just seem to ignore the fact that she is mentally ill? Are we, as a country, so accustomed to craziness that we now accept her behavior as "normal?" What does speak of the way this nation is going if we accept someone so mentally ill to capture the ears and eyes of the public and speak as though she had credibility? That is what frightens me, that someone so ill can get so much attention and then be viewed as acceptable in the social and news media. I don't have any personal experience with mental illness at her extreme level so maybe that is why I find her behavior so upsetting. Surely most people see this as not normal and would never give her any real power. Maybe folks just find it funny and let it go at that. thanks for all you do..

Mhurka

7/16/2011 01:00:56 am

My gut tells me that in this particular case most of the enablers (especially Chuck) might be just as crazy as the enablee. That would be the simplest explanation. Just sayin'.

lilly lily

7/16/2011 01:17:14 am

It is the old nature vs nurture with the Heath-Palin tribe. I think with Chuck and Sarah who are the dominents and strongest personalities who everyone revolves around it is basically their drive and their nature to control those around them.

With the others? They are weaker and go along with everything Chuck and Sarah want, because if they don't get what they want, all hell breaks loose.

Sally seems to be a doormat and goes along with everything her husband wants. A complete enabler. Her girls other than Sarah are the same. Their husbands may not even count in this dynamic.

It all seems to flow down from Chuck and his determination to make Sarah another son, and his obsession with killing everything in sight for eating and sport.

Sarah must have been very impressed from a young age at his powers. He is her God.

They will make a case study eventually on the Palin family dynamics.

Right now the public is busy ridiculing and laughing at the absurdity of this woman as a presidential candidate. THAT is very, very healthy.

Laura Novak link

7/16/2011 01:44:16 am

That's a good point, Mhurka. What if it "works" to support the crazy person in the family because "her" behavior masks the behavior of her spouse or parents. I should think that that would be an unconscious decision because I'm not sure anyone thinks, "Well she's crazier than me so it will deflect from my behavior."

And Pam and Brad are right: what if the enablers branch out to society as a whole: voters, followers, and the media. Then it seems there really is no hope of containing the narcissist. Yet it has to begin with the immediate and intimate family that supports the rise to power in the first place, despite signs that were probably there that said this person is not mentally stable and stress will exacerbate our situation all the way around.

Yet, as I said in the introduction, when the glamour and perks start coming in, all hands are on deck to keep the gravy train roaring ahead. And any concern for righting the mentally ill person's ship (to mix a lot of corny metaphors) goes out the window. The payoff has finally arrived so everyone shut up and put up even more than we have in the past. That might be the message at this point.

7/16/2011 02:07:20 am

I too grew up in a dysfunctional family - my father had several addictions, which led eventualy to his committing suicide. We all enabled him, to our own detriment and to the detriment of others in the family.

As a familiy, we lived in a cone of silence, in which loyalty to the Family was everything. Anything or anyone that might diminish our view of the Family was a threat to our existence (as we knew it) which needed to be demolished. It was a matter of survival. It was a very isolating way of life, as the only part of it that could be acknowledged was the public image. Even today, some of my siblings cannot acknowledge my dad's addictions and become very angry if others (inside or outside the family) refer to them. My other siblings may acknowledge, in a whisper to another family member, that he had "problems", but they can't bring themselves to say that he was an alcoholic. And if the family has trouble acknowledging my father's addictions, absolutely no one (except me, and believe me, I whisper it) can acknowledge or even see my mother's role as chief enabler.

The thing to keep in mind with the Palin children (and probably the Heaths as well) is that this is the only existence they know. Breaking out of the Family system feels like death - you not only risk destroying the most important relationships in your life - the only ones, under the Family system, that matter - you have to learn a whole new way of interacting with others. It's a very disorienting experience.

PhD.

7/16/2011 02:23:09 am

A few comments;

Jeanette-- What keeps the entanglement reinforced for some? Enmeshment, where one's sense of individual identity is merged with another, speaks to why one has a difficult time breaking away from a person without boundaries and yet another off spring can be resilient and resistant to that boundary violation. A parent with serious depression might present like a narcissist but at the core may have a healthier character development and not organized around psychopathology. Thus, they are not quite as punishing when those they love naturally individuate and differentiate. It's not experienced as being disloyal or abandonment.

dt--Great example. Religious cults are an excellent illustration of disciples organized around the narcissist and made to feel like the crazy one if they have a different view point and are punished for leaving (by the members, and the fear of the greater power).

Lidia17-- Really nice interpretation on the False Self analogy.

Leona- Thanks for bringing up the "splitting" defense-- a hallmark of this level of psychopathology.

Phantomimic--Breaking away or breaking the family pattern of destruction and toxicity. Tough to say. Support, support, support. Reality checks, validations, assurances and a great therapist-- meaning thoughtful, empathic, informed, patient and can maintain the therapeutic boundaries as a model of a healthy relationship.

rubbernecking

7/16/2011 02:42:38 am

I think Track and Bristol both attempted escapes in different ways. Like many people, they both made unwise decisions in their teenage years. But he had the benefit of a girlfriend pursuing her education, working towards career goals, and having a stable parents to advise her.

I think Bristol tried to escape. Her pregnancy with Tripp may have even been an escape plan of sorts. She didn't move into the new house on her parents' Wasilla compound. She initially tried to create a life in Anchorage in her own condo. She tried to patch things up with Levi.

But Levi didn't have the parental support that Track's girlfriend did.
Levi was being advised by people with financial motivations--not stable, emotionally-mature parents. Based on Bristol's interviews about the engagement fall-out, her family forced her to choose them or her son's father.

The sad thing about Bristol is how often she seems to make major life decisions in secret: to get pregnant, to get engaged, to use a tabloid to announce her engagement, to share intimate details of her life in a memoir. She is on a path that keeps taking her further and futher away from any type of normal life and healthy romantic relationship.

I know it sounds crazy but sometimes I think this story is less sad if Trig's is actually Bristol's child. It seems more tragic if the arc of Bristol's life changed because she spent so much time caring for her premature infant brother. I am a rubbernecker on this...very torn between looking and not looking.

I think for the adults like Todd, Chuck, and Frank Bailey, Sarah's success made them important and/or brought them power they couldn't acquire on their own. People who cared about Bailey threw him a lifeline (and held on) when they saw how destructive the relationship was for him.

Rationalist

7/16/2011 02:45:17 am

This is a great thread - gets to the heart of the matter, in my view.

Two points:

Here's a theory. Palin is the natural political evolution of our obsession with celebrity & reality shows. We have lost perspective and honestly believe, on some level, that when we watch the Kardashians or the Bachelorette that we are observing someone's actual life. But what we are watching are a bunch of narcissists playing at real life in front of cameras. It's so weird. All this reality TV has normalized the "living in public" idea so that we are just so used to narcissistic behavior we don't see it anymore. Movie stars used to seem larger than life. Now we imagine them to be "just like us" in fundamental ways. We forget that everything we observe is actually happening in front of a camera, and that's really weird.

I'm rambling a bit - sorry.

My second observation is about my own narcissistic parent. (And I would say most of us on these blogs have some experience with family members like that, which may be what draws us to this story.) Anyway, I had this realization when my dad got surprisingly upset once when I disagreed with him. It was like I'd betrayed him. And it occurred to me: the narcissist does not really empathize. Their reality IS reality. So if someone disagrees with them, it feels to them like someone is challenging their very reality, which is a huge threat. In other words, if it's "my way or nothing," then any challenge to "my way" holds an existential threat. It's got to be terrifying to the Narcissist to have the ground beneath them under threat like that. That's why they're so defensive.

For the child of someone like that - a child who depends upon them for life and support - the stakes are high. They must support the craziness because they sense how desperately fragile the narcissist is. From a young age, they've learned that their lives literally depend on propping up their parent. That's why families like the Palins are so "close."

It's tragic, really.

viola-alex

7/16/2011 03:47:43 am

Palin has made her motherhood a political platform, but who's challenged her on it, but Laura and Brad!?

There are photos in Bristol's book that tell more story than the false words. Several where she looks like the "little mother" holding down the fort in the kitchen, a baby in each arm, etc. It can be far easier to have an outright abusive parent than a parent revered in public. THAT will make you crazy fast, when what you feel inside about the chaos at home or the mood swings does not jive with a public image. At home you barely hold things together. In public there are thousands cheering your unstable parent. Somewhere I read Bristol say that all her friends envied her and thought she had the coolest mom. I believe that that is the reality of the Palin children. What we saw of Piper's meltdown on the americana trip is a child trying to figure out her feelings of frustration in the midst of so much adulation and attention around her mother.

Girls are especially vulnerable in this way. We're taught to caretake from an early age, no matter what. I notice Track doesn't do too much campaigning or public appearance.

The press enable Palin for what she gives them. (Not unlike buying a drunk more drinks to watch him dance.) The people I have no patience with are the grownups who know the truth about Trig and about Palin's AK political careers who don't speak up, particularly Dr. Baldwin Johnson.

Allie

7/16/2011 04:01:52 am

Great discussion, and thanks, PhD and Laura for getting us going. The comments are insightful.

Okay, so Sarah thinks in B/W terms and is herself polarizing. Thus, her observers are polarized based perhaps on where anyone is on the codependency continuum. Is it accurate to say, PhD, that those who hold a Dominionist world view, particularly the aspect of submission by the wife to the husband, that that in and of itself defines a codependent? Is it not what enablers do, to submit their own personal power to the power of another person for whatever reason? Therefore, if these radical religious women are accustomed to submitting to their husband's will, how much of a stretch is it for them to recognize and feel the same pull toward Sarah Palin? Isn't there a component of enabling behavior that simply becomes habitual? In that kind of an emotionally stressful environment, doesn't it become too much trouble to constantly invent new responses to bad behavior and patterns emerge? So, for those who worship SP, it is just more of the same enabling.

For those of us who recognize that illness is being manifested and are not interested in enabling what we consider to be undesirable or destructive, even dangerous behavior, we can't go down the enabling path.

Rarely is there a middle ground regarding the support or opposition to Palin. The middle ground is basically people not paying attention or have little experience with codependence. So it stands to reason there are distinct camps and the only possible bridge is an expansion of understanding of the relationship between personality disorders and codependence.

Good luck with that.

Viola-Alex

7/16/2011 04:35:12 am

This discussion really hits to the heart of the Palin phenomenon, and in some ways, comforts me that she can't go further.

Recently I've been reading about the Bush family. When they decided to attract the Christian Right, Geo W was carefully schooled by Billy Graham and others. He was actually coached to use the right words, to allude to the proper born-again experiences, like the moment he accepted Jesus as his saviour and how Jesus saved him from drinking. He hired a Christian speechwriter. And he passed that with flying colors.

Sarah pops out a "God" now and then, but any real Christian paying attention (as evidenced by the comments on Bristol's Christianity Today article)don't hear conviction in her voice.

The Republicans only back candidates who will further the aims of banking, gas and oil. Sarah had the right credentials for gas and oil, but, I believe, scared the bejesus out of the GOP establishment with her crazy, unpredictable ways and erractic mind.

In the end, Sarah is for Sarah. Not the Dominists, not the fundie Christians, not the Republicans, really not even the Tea Party.

Perhaps (and we can wish) her full-on narcissism will make her non-functional in a larger, national arena, even if SHE thinks she can run.

LisanTx

7/16/2011 04:52:49 am

One other point not yet mentioned is "trauma bonds." Anyone living in a family like the Palins' has experienced trauma. Unfortunately, trauma creates bonds with the very person causing the trauma. The bonds are laid down in our neurology; it is beyond our control. These bonds are another reason it is difficult for Bristol to leave. Patrick Carnes wrote a great book called "Trauma Bonds."

viola-alex had a good point about being a daughter of someone (Sarah) being revered in public (but who is abusive in private).

Finally, when someone grows up in a family with someone with a personality disorder they perceive the situation as normal because that is all they have known. It *is* normal for them. An emotional blindness is developed when a person is raised by an abusive parent. Alice Miller has written about this emotional blindness. I think so many of the people who adore Palin have this emotional blindness. It causes a person to believe what they are told and to suspend disbelief. I believe that the Palin children have this blindness (and many people develop it) in order to survive a difficult childhood.

Rationalist

7/16/2011 04:54:03 am

Allie - that is so interesting. What you're saying is the Dominionism is institutionalized codependence. That makes a lot of sense to me.

It's kind of stunning how many times Christians will come back for more from leaders who fail to live up to the standards they themselves have set - from Jimmy Swaggart to Jim Bakker to Ted Haggart to Mark Sanford. It's the classic alcoholic craziness of expecting a different result of the same behavior.

Allie

7/16/2011 05:03:36 am

Agree, Viola-Alex. Code words and dog whistles. And, just FYI in case you haven't read the platform of the Alaska Independent Party, it's Tea Party all the way. She and Todd were Tea Party before it was cool. In fact, I have a little mini-theory that one of the reasons she pursued the Lt. Gov. then the governorship was to influence legislation and appointments in accordance with AIP goals. I think that is the root of Todd's support for her political career. I think there is a magazine story or a short story or even a book on that premise. It would be just like the hoax, though, people would resist believing it.

mumimor

7/16/2011 05:12:37 am

Rationalist, I agree: maybe we are attracted to the Palin saga because it mirrors something in our own life. I found this post very close to the heart (thanks Laura and Phd).

Ironically, these days I'm in the middle of a huge family drama. I've just come home after hours of trying to persuade my gran not to disown my cousin because of some minor disagreement. She needs him, like all humans need each other. I think the core of my maternal family's disfunction was trauma during WWII (part-Jewish family in Europe). But the end result is something quite close to the Palin set-up.

I was lucky - my father was a completely different sort of person, and when my parents divorced when I was tiny, he married into a great, very stable family. But I am the only person in my extended family who is not into the drama, and that is only after years of therapy. This can last for generations.
Why do people stay on? it's really simple: this drama takes up every hour and minute of your life, and you have no time to think, ever. If you try to get yourself a few hours of free time, you will be pestered and bullied till you are back in line. And also: everyone will use the most intimate information in order to control you (Bristol under the bus, remember?)
Another thing I know from personal experience is that it is really hard to understand normal relationships. You simply have no references. So often dysfunctional families marry into other dysfunctional families, because it feels safe. (After my parents divorced, my mother and my aunt married cousins from a completely crazy family. Wow). I have been in two relationships with mentally ill men, in spite of all my friends' warnings. The guys seemed normal enough to me. My proudest achievement is that my girls are good.

I think my gran has a so-called atypical depression, which was triggered during several terrible experiences during the war. Finally, after 65 years, she is on medication, and it helps a bit, but the doctor admits medication isn't very useful here. My aunt has had several different diagnoses, but I think the most accurate one is ADHD and borderline combined. They are at the core of our problems, but almost everyone in our family is somehow affected - over 20 people!

One reason we are helpless in this is that both ladies are extremely beautiful and charming, and each in her way successful. If we complain or cop out, a lot of people in our city will condemn us. I can't even imagine how this would be if your mother/aunt/sister was a governor or vice-presidential candidate.

lilly lily

7/16/2011 05:14:10 am

I think if Curtis Menard had reciprocated Sarah Palins romantic crush on her and married her, this all might not have become a national problem.

Perhaps Curtis Menard could have altered her future behavior because she was obsessed with her. Todd certainly has no control over her behavior. He is the classic enabler, tip toeing around her moods and madness.

Of course Menard privatly telling her in her office that she was not doing the right thing by her (or Their???) children didn't do any good for by that time her feelings for him had weakened or altered and she probably felt angry with his interferance rather than ready to change her ways. And of course the water in the gas tank of his plane, and his death meant no one told her to straighten up and fly right.

Todd had let her go her way, both out of weakness, and also because she is the stronger of the two.

Curtis was a stronger male. Sarah has contempt for men (except her father or more dominant types). She can manipulate weak men by her slightly slutty behavior. Push up bras, seductive batting of her eyes and flirtatious behavior and men are putty in her hands. How can she have any respect for them when she can manipulate them so easily?

Brad Hanson who she reportedly had an affair with, and who was divorced for that little fling was a foul mouthed man. She likes someone who pushes back or who can dominate.

Hannity, for example is like a panting puppy drooling and eager to please. How she must despise him.

lilly lily

7/16/2011 05:56:47 am

Though I was born in a dysfunctional family, ( a lot out there) it didn't seem to affect me as I did my own thing in my own way all my life. It seemed to make me stronger.

It seemed to allow me to understand other peoples peculiar behavior when I ran into it and the ability to deal with it, mainly shrugging it off and avoidance of toxic types who are easy enough to recognise.

I married into a family member who every one walked on eggs around. Her breakdown was mentioned in hushed tones. Early in our marriage, I told my mother in law to go to hell, called a taxi and went my own way.

Though members of his family divorced, my husband kept me close, so to a degree she backed off, and I tolerated some of her nonsense by allowing things to run off my back.. I think I frightened her to a degree by standing up to her. She didn't tip toe around me, but minded her P's and Q's, and I didn't tip toe around her either. A mexican stand off.

Later I found out what the nervous breakdown was, and it had been something so horrific that I could understand the tip toeing. All she had to do was shed a few tears.

Her husband loved and protected her till she died, even though she went into dementia for twenty years before she did die.

Loads of charisma and charm, some of which my husband inherited.

I'm immune to charisma and charm. I want substance.

Having a extremely low tolerance for toxic people, I will NOT ALLOW someone as obviously TOXIC and malign as Sarah Palin into the White House.

So I blog.

Conscious at last!

7/16/2011 05:57:58 am

RE: Palin and the Menards

It was Linda Menard (Curtis Menard's mother) who apparently encouraged SP to enter the 1984 beauty contest to raise money for college tuition.

I am imagining a scenario where LM knew that Curtis and Sarah were "sweet on each other". The problem was that CM was destined to be a successful dentist, like his dad(?), and our girl SP needed a lot of "spit and polish" if she was going be in CM's life.
So LM tried to push it along, helping SP to get $$ for higher education. Oh well, we all know how that plan worked out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding Unhealthy Family Systems:

I think that young people in the late teens and early twenties are still usually emotionally tied to the system they grew up in--whatever it is.

Unless there is an extreme trauma or radical break, people who are that young rarely have the ability to break with a toxic system. Even if they separate from specific individuals, they will often reproduce some of the aspects of the system elsewhere.

I think it is unrealistic to expect any of the Palin children to stray.

Deep healing takes many years and lots of conscious work.

Allie

7/16/2011 05:58:54 am

@ Brad When the hoax story finally gets out there, and it will, I have this feeling that it is going to be Steve Schmidt who confirms the details. He is her most dangerous threat of exposure I believe. Furthermore, I think that Steve knows that Sarah knows the potential of the damage he can do to her and therefore, he holds the most power over her. He is the most effective brake she has on her behavior and she knows his foot hovers over the pedal. The only thing that holds him back is that revealing the pregnancy hoax and her true self destroys John McCain.

YMMV

lilly lily

7/16/2011 06:17:14 am

I think Curtis eventually sucumbed to a very available female as she was incredably persistant and pushy, but didn't care enough to marry her.

I doubt that he was sweet on her initially or ever.

Sarah has no boundries in anything she does.

Sex is one of those things.

If she wants something or someone Sarah Palin will go after it. Legal or illegal, moral or immoral.

I do think Linda Menard was trying to spit and polish Sarah.

It didn't work.

V ictoria link

7/16/2011 06:49:52 am

Bristol is the one in the family who knows the most. But she seems to be unlikely to stray from the story. How would she support herself? She's a young, barely educated woman with one (or two) children and no profession. She'd lose her abstinence speaking gig. Her mother's group wouldn't keep her on DWTS. No one would buy the book written about her.

I hadn't thought much before about what a fake Bristol is, but she sure seems to be taking a lot of credit - and bucks - that she doesn't deserve.

Stryker

7/16/2011 06:53:58 am

PhD - a question:

Having studied a number of sociopaths and narcissists, especially those with paranoia and symptoms of mania/depression, what tends to be the general final outcome in their lives?

Since a true NPD cannot live normally, what can families come to expect throughout the years?

We know they don't get better. What happens to the families? And what can the family of a narcissist expect throughout the years?

Laura Novak link

7/16/2011 06:59:29 am

Mumimor, thanks for sharing that personal story. In fact thank you to ALL here who shed light on their own experience with narcissists and with dysfunctional families. Clearly, we/you are the ones who sniffed her out from the get-go. And the expanded theories as to those who follow Palin are very interesting, right down to the institutionalized nature of the fundies "cult."

In many ways, it seems, the narcissist can't grow and "blossom" without having some element of charm or ability to function in the outer world. That's the insidious part of the whole thing: the two-sided, Jekyll Hyde facet of living in their world.

I knew a boy in high school whose mother was a fall down, raging drunk. It was no secret. There were no cover-ups. What you saw was what you got. I believe it's far more nefarious when the outer picture looks perfect.

And probably far more dangerous to the family's health when the physical rewards, such as cars, clothes, travel, etc, are expensive and otherwise impossible to obtain.

And then there's the issue of secrets. Can't not have secrets in these families, now can you!

K.M.R

7/16/2011 07:32:54 am

Insightful response Laura. I too enjoyed reading what others have shared as well. Thank you. Much of it hit home, for I too grew up with dysfunction as well. I do think it is widespread.
My father came home from WWII a wounded man. He drank to anesthetize himself. Problems did result in our large family -problems that are still felt today in some ways. We made it through for the most part because he was a good man at heart who when not drinking would educate us about his illness. That helped but, sorry to say, the residue remained for some of my siblings. Not only that, today more than one of my brothers also have trouble with drinking. Heredity does play a part and probably moreso if a family felt it had to tippy-toe around a troubled parent.

Earlier I said that we shouldn't try to publicly diagnose Sarah Palin's mental state. But hopefully you all know there is no debate from me in calling her out on her life of lies (that seems different to me). I agree that she is a counterfeit person with something is terribly wrong in her brain.

I've been doing some reading. The passage below gave me something to consider; and that is, that people like Sarah Palin not only crave attention (we knew that) but they often recklessly and intentionally put themselves into dubious situations for the excitement. With no real sense of self, their lives would feel meaningless otherwise. That, and they actually like it when others feel sorry for their misfortunes. They want pity and sympathy, even though not ever giving it, because pity and sympathy is a socially valuable response. It feeds them. They turn the pity into, "You owe me."

(p. 107)The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout
"I first learned this when I was still a graduate student in psychology and had the opportunity to interview a court-referred patient the system had already identified as a psychopath. He was not violent, preferring instead to swindle people out of their money with elaborate investment scams. Intrigued by this individual, and what could possibly motivate him—I was young enough to think he was a rare sort of person—I asked, "What is important to you in your life? What do you want more than anything else?" I thought he might say "getting money," or "staying out of jail," which were the activities that he devoted most of his time. Instead, without a moment's hesitation, he replied, "Oh, that's easy. What I like better than anything else is when people feel sorry for me. The thing I really want more than anything else out of life is people's pity."

PhD.

7/16/2011 07:47:55 am

Allie-- Many researchers and clinicians alike have tried to draw correlations between codependency and a personality disorder. At one point in the late 80's early 90's the closest definition was to "dependent" personality disorder

http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/dependent-personality-disorder

There is quite a bit of codependent literature, but very little scholarly research. From my clinical observations a codependent can eventually break free of the dysfunctional behavior-- defining themselves through a relationship with another, typically an addict, someone abusive or ill. Their identity and self concept is tied to that of a caretaker where if the other person recovers there is no self. Essentially with therapy, eduction and support-- unlike a true personality disorder a codependent can "get better" and find a true self.

LisanTx-- Trauma bonds, emtional blindness, Alice Miller. Yes.

Mumimor--You are astute in your observations that individuals from toxic environments and dysfunctional family systems often replace the very systems and relationships they fought so hard to leave. Yes, for safety. But more often because it's familiar and people are looking for "mastery" over unworked through situations. Freud called it Repetition Compulsion.

Stryker-- A good question to ponder. What does happen to the narcissist and other fragile personality disorder types as they get older? Well, we know with the narcissist that aging is tough. Once youth and physical appearance slips away there can be a rapid decompensation. Cosmetic surgery can help. But on a more serious note, the cluster of symptoms and behaviors associated with personality disorders tend to become magnified with age. Not pretty. Be prepared.

mumimor

7/16/2011 09:11:38 am

PhD, I've heard of that before, but had forgotten, and it is something I can easily relate to, regarding my own relationships. When it comes to my mother and aunt, the way they express themselves is that they "need someone who can handle sensitive people".

To get back on topic, I forgot to write that there is a very good reason my aunt has severe problems (again, war-related). And that my grandfather, in his (guilt-ridden) attempt to alleviate these problems, probably made matters significantly worse, both for our two fragile family members and for everyone else. In other words, someone completely sane and caring and good can contribute to the insanity if he or she doesn't understand what to do. Not necessarily by enabling, because getting the wrong help can be as bad.

Another on-topic issue: my grandmother is one of those people who will lie always, just because that is how words come out of her mouth. Living with a person who never, ever tells the truth is extremely disorienting. Nothing can change that. My far more ill aunt rarely lies, but she does say crazy stuff. Also very difficult to deal with.

At the end of the day, this is actually why I protest every time we as a group go out on a limb analyzing the Palin family. Not because I disagree, though sometimes I do. But because it will make no difference. No one from that family is going to change their minds or open up, unless something truly dramatic happens. And even if Levi tells the truth in his book, the force with which the Palins call him a liar will be so strong, even ultra-left wing communist partisans will doubt his words. Bristol is already out there, prepping. So I doubt he will tell the whole truth.

The only way here is to gather indisputable proof. Pictures of SP with a tiny waist taken April 16th. Or something like that.

Laura Novak link

7/16/2011 09:20:32 am

Mumimor, I see both sides of your argument. On the one hand, understanding and examining the woman and the background of her motives. But then again, we understand the beast and know it will not change. You are right about Levi: they are already getting out in front of that, though I suspect they already know what he is going to say.

And KMR, thanks for that fascinating excerpt. One thinks of these people in aggressive terms, that is wanting to actively do harm, rather than passively wanting pity. What an interesting turn of events.

And thank you, PhD, for continuing to check in. I've learned a lot just from this thread alone. Thank you everyone.

Ottoline

7/16/2011 09:50:28 am

mumimor -- You have crystallized why I stayed out of this conversation. It doesn't make any difference. To me. As an intellectual exercise, a curiosity, an education -- sure. But I am way more interested and moved when I hear snippets of the difficult lives some of the commenters mention as having led -- so many commenters I really, really like here, and who have made really illuminating comments here and elsewhere over these long years of Palin angst. I'm sorry and want to send a hug. Not that you want one, or that it would help!

I sure don't feel that way about Palin. I am not really very interested in her exact diagnosis or her family. I am interested only in getting her (and more importantly her enablers [high, low, and MSM]) out of the national dialogue.

Now Caroline Kennedy's family dynamics -- I am very interested in learning all I can about that. Because I admire so many facets of it and want to learn the subtleties. Palin? No interest.

As I have read about all these dysfunctional phenomena and diagnoses, I am constantly wondering to what degree I manifest them to my dear ones, perhaps without enough self-awareness about it. I think a lot of these things are part of the human condition, and it's on a sliding scale. We all have some degree of experience with all these character flaws. Of course, to subject them in their extreme form on children or defenseless others, as people surely do, is the sad part.

I wonder if it's the extreme dysfunction that so many have recognized in Palin that keeps people adhereing to the cone of silence -- just too weird to get into, obvious at a glance that we are in for some hard slogging, which no one wants. And an instant intuition that this will get complicated and not understandable v fast. So they just don't want to get their hands dirty. I just read somewhere that during the campaign, Obama said he would fire anyone who addressed Palin's family issues. Bravo for him to take the high road. But we, now, MUST address the hoax in the interests of the goal of an honest political system. Approaching that goal as well as we can, anyway.

I just want to identify/find the add'l item(s) that will truly sideline the Palin phenomenon and help marginalize the v destructive right wing/dominionists in our country. And fast, before the next election.

viola-alex

7/16/2011 10:09:28 am

@Mumimor: I bet many of us reacted to Palin as a danger because she was all too familiar. We knew she lied. We knew the birth was a hoax because we recognized who she is from our own experiences. I believe this is one of the gifts women often have.

Also, there has been research that we vote for candidates that remind us of our family of origin or for candidates that DON'T remind us of our families. (Republicans have authoritarian fathers or wish they did. Democrats have easy going fathers or wish they did.) If I remember correctly, Alice Miller writes persuasively of an entire generation of corporally punished German children growing up to follow Hitler.

Understanding people as best we can is just another way of protecting ourselves. Knowing the enemy. I feel sure the Republican congress knows their enemy and counts on his good humor and generous manner.

--
And Thank you, PhD, for being available for this grownup discussion.

Conscious at last!

7/16/2011 10:24:30 am

@ Allie

Re: Steve Schmidt-- I agree with you, however there is the other side of the coin. The GOP campaign participated in a cover-up. They engaged in a variety of activities to support the fake pregnancy that were unethical and perhaps, even, illegal. So, these top flight McCain staffers are vulnerable and have every reason to conceal or control the message as they try to limit the damage to THEIR OWN reputations.

FrostyAK

7/16/2011 10:39:27 am

I think those of us who were able to walk away from dysfunctional families were the first (in AK and then
nationally) to see her for what she is. I expect that those who still support her were never able to free themselves from their own dysfunctions.

Something that has not been mentioned (I don't think) is that $P seems to have very low self-esteem, and deals with it by abusing others to make herself feel important/better/superior. This pathology is first seen in public with the $arah Barracuda in sports in HS.

PhD, do narcissists normally get stuck at an early stage of development (say middle school) and continue to deal with life using the strategies they developed at that time? Never moving to a more mature way of behaving?

Also, are narcissists more apt to come from dysfunctional families?

7/16/2011 10:41:32 am

Viola-Alex: I agree completely. These NPD Queens get away with so much because they look normal, even successful, and nobody would believe a person could lie, or use other people, as casually as they breathe. It took a good decade around my co-worker before I understood how deeply pathological her personality is. Sure, I knew there were "issues" much earlier, but it took a long time to realize how she simply invents her own reality, wholesale, to suit her purposes as she goes along. Once you've had a front row seat to how the games are played, you clue in fast when you see them again.
@Laura, as you say, very much a double-edged sword: charisma on the one hand, pathology on the other. I would add a third key element: celebrity. The more successful a NPD Queen is at getting the celebrity/power she craves, the more of a monster she becomes, not only because she is that much more able to control those around her, but also because the house of cards otherwise known as her self-image becomes that much more grandiose.

comeonpeople

7/16/2011 11:02:53 am

I'm reading this post and crying. I have a narcissistic mother and dysfunctional birth family. It took me 26 years to get to my breaking point. At 26 years old I stood up to her. Now 21 more years later, my sister nad I have abandoned each other as I just can't be involved in her cycle of still trying to get "mommy's love". This summer has been very hard, but I can't help my sister anymore, her patterns of self destruction were exhausting me. She calls me crazy and has cut me off from her kids as punishment. So dysfunctional. I'm simply done with the games. I have a great husband and two beautiful sons who are the only family I need. It's interesting that my emotional pain and anger at my mother has only gotten worse as I raise my family. I see how my kids need me, what children need to grow and thrive and develop and I think ....I am glad for my inner drive and resilience to have survived and blossomed despite the dysfunction of my early life. My dad as always chooses his wife over his kids and this adds additional pain.
Sorry that this is so rambling. This is very emotional.
Palin pushes my buttons because those of us who have survived a crazy mother can just experience Palin's pathology in a very visceral way. For me, the first time I saw her in August 2008 I knew she was not right. When Palin is lauded and presented as something worthy of anything of importance, let alone the presidency, it makes me feel like I am living in a twilight zone. It just adds insult to injury.

NSG

7/16/2011 11:14:42 am

This was a very enlightening post and discussion. Thanks, Laura, PhD & all.

Recent posts, esp by viola-alex and FrostyAK, really clicked for me. My mother is very likely Borderline PD, and there's a lot of overlap with NPD. (FWIW, I've extricated myself almost completely -- maintaining a very superficial connection, only out of a sense of obligation -- and I feel like I have a decent perspective on the whole thing, following a lot of work and therapy.)

But I learned a number of years ago that I have a very sensitive radar for the cuh-razy and I RUN away from it as fast as I can when I come across it in my life.

So I think I'm another instance of one who's radar got pinged by Palin early on, and that's why this discussion continues to fascinate. At least we can observe from a distance!

PhD.

7/16/2011 11:25:55 am

FrostyAK Here is a website with a decent, succinct compilation of research on Narcissism. I am in no way however endorsing the author, but that's another story http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html

According to prevailing and competing theories Narcissists do "get stuck" in certain stages of development. It depends if we are talking about primary narcissism or secondary. I think of it as a developmental derailment at a primitive stage of development where there has been an empathic failure by a primary care provider (The Slef Psychology model commonly attributed to Heinz Kohut). So, yes I believe narcissists are more apt to come from dysfunctional families. People who are somewhat empty vessels or lacking a true self and a bit bankrupt in what they have to offer or provide emotionally to offspring. Some might say there is an impasse at the oral stage of development where the child is left hungering, starving for a good object.

Heady stuff. Remember, these are all theories. Soon, the neuroscientists will be telling us what part of the brain lights up in FMRI research that suggests certain brain involvements with these psychopathologies. Fascinating.

SunnyVee

7/16/2011 11:55:20 am

I am behind on reading everyone's comments today, but this is a book that has been very helpful to me. it is written for potential therapists/counselors, but I am learning so much by recognizing myself, as the daughter of a narcissistic/very anxious mom. Peace :)

http://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Family-Diagnosis-Treatment/dp/0787908703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310867502&sr=8-1

Laura Novak link

7/16/2011 12:21:16 pm

Comeonpeople: I am saddened and touched that you have found so much personal reference in this thread. It sounds as if many people who were "on to" Palin from the first moments have experienced something similar in their own lives. Visceral reactions can't be ignored. Interestingly, it also seems that everyone who has commented, has also moved on. And that's why this topic was interesting to me. I wonder if we'll ever witness people moving on from this particular situation? Or have they? And we just don't know it.

PhD has been wonderful today continuing the dialogue and providing us with more knowledge. And all of you who have provided links for further reading, thank you!

I'll leave this post up through tomorrow, so, please continue to check in. Thank you all!

7/16/2011 01:52:31 pm

To the list of people who were "on to" Palin I think we can add Joe McGinnis. I have no idea what his family life was like, but he certainly had a unique front-row seat to the Jeffrey MacDonald show. I read that book only recently, after I knew he had a Palin book in the works; when F/V first came out I was much too busy with small children to read anything that thick! The more I read, the more I could understand why he was drawn to write about Palin.

Laura Novak link

7/16/2011 01:56:07 pm

I agree, jk. I just re-read the book and can clearly see the similarities in many respects. I can't wait to read his book!

V ictoria link

7/16/2011 02:03:42 pm

Hmm, I feel like the only one who didn't have narcissism in my family! My family had its own problems, of course, but of a different sort. But I'm hooked on the Palin pregnancy mystery partly because it is a mystery. And because she has already had a huge impact on our country. Think about her phrase "Death Panels" and how that nearly destroyed Obamacare?

But back to Palin family dynamics. Remember the recent bus tour? How Piper went up to one or more journalists and said: "Thanks for ruining our vacation!"

I'm sure that her mother told her to say those words. Now, obviously the bus tour was designed to generate publicity - I mean, look at that bus! - and yet Sarah was as mean as she could be to the media (who mocked her once again when she talked about Paul Revere). Is this a case of not being worshipped sufficiently?

Ruth

7/16/2011 02:52:27 pm

I don't remember which blog I got this from, but somebody suggested reading a book called 'Son of a Grifter: The Twisted Tale of Sante and Kenny Kimes, the Most Notorious Con Artists in America' by Kent Walker to understand SP. I checked it out from the library and it was really interesting. This man's mother is so much like SP, always lying, cheating, using sex to get what she wants. He said she could walk into a party and pick the one person with a weakness she could exploit, maybe they were a little bit greedy or had an eye for the ladies, then one thing would lead to another. A little favor would turn into a bigger favor, then end up with her owning their soul. Plus she was able to get ordinary, decent people to lie to cover for her, say she was with them when she wasn't, or something happened the week after it really did. They thought they were just helping out a nice little old lady, but it was all just another layer of the con.

PhD.

7/17/2011 01:53:05 am

Victoria, Glad you brought up the bus tour. Not sure what happened to bring SP down on that trip-- but clearly something contributed to her meltdown. However, Piper's quick run to her Mother's defense is a a good illustration of the family dynamics that play out when the narcissist decompensates. Piper has taken it upon herself to be a little soldier for the family, has been exploited (as you so aptly stated) to do so, and clearly feels responsible for her Mother's well being. Generally a healthy family system with in tact boundaries would have the adults provide for and soothe the children. In this case Piper has clearly internalized her role as her mother's protector.

lilly lily

7/17/2011 02:28:07 am

Another family I think has a nodding resemblance to theSarah Palin thing is Gypsy Rose Lee and her mother Rose and sister June. Mama Rose is Sarah.

Gypsy Rose Lee told her only son (out of wedlock) by Otto Premingeer that men weren't worth anything. Nice thing to tell a young boy.

Rose, her mother was a grifter and wildly ambitious for her little daughters. Left her husband to go on Vaudeville with Baby June and Louise who became Gypsy Rose Lee.

They all hated mama Rose, but Rose clung to them like a leech demanding money when the two girls became big earners. Of course they lived off of Baby June when she was a Tiara Baby type singing and dancing.

I'm sure most of you are familiar with "GYPSY"

I think Bristol will become another Rose with her exploitation of Tripp.

Similar, but there are many ways to exploit your children. Sarah does it all the time. So will Bristol.

Laura Novak link

7/17/2011 02:52:39 am

Great topic, that bus stop in Boston. I never faulted the reporters, having been in that position countless times. You need to get the sound bite when you only have seconds that the person stops to talk.

What was SO strange (or not, based on the family dynamics discussed here) was how the mother didn't reach out to pull the child close to her. Hold her in her arms while she gave the sound bite. How the child internalized the need to block the reporters and defend the mother. And how the mother didn't even notice the child doing her bidding.

It was a pathetic display and if I recall correctly, the reporter looked down with a stunned expression, while then holding out his microphone, reaching over a child's head. I'll bet that was a first for him in his career.

Thanks for that explanation, PhD.

padoreva

7/17/2011 02:52:44 am

Add me to the list of those who grew up in a dysfunctional family with a narcissistic, borderline or depressed parent. Thank you Ph.d for your explanation of how extreme depression can manifest similarly to narcissism. That seems to be an apt description of my mother.

Like so many of you posting, I grew up in a closed family dynamic, and also had a parent who was very damaged by WWII. (It breaks my heart to think of all these young soldiers in these needless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who will be visiting these traumas on their families in the future.)

I did manage to break out of my family in college--thanks to distance and psychedelic drugs. Extricating myself was very traumatic, much like a death, as one of you has written. Unfortunately I gravitated to a man who was very dysfunctional, in a similar way to my mother.

It took me twenty years to break away from him. In retrospect I think he was a borderline personality. He was always manufacturing chaos during the few times our lives were running smoothly. And he had problems with impulse control--infidelity, violence and fiscal irresponsibility. (Sound like anyone we're talking about on this blog?)

Those sorts of people tend to break down others' self esteem and it took a violent situation for me to finally end the relationship. He had been violent to me before, but I had gotten to the point where I told myself that any more events of infidelity or violence and I would walk, consequences be damned. I felt like I was choosing between life and death, and it may have actually been true, had I stayed in the relationship.

It was really difficult to disentangle myself from the marriage. Lots of things were going on in my life simultaneously. My father was dying and I suddenly realized that I would need to take care of my mother, who was on the road to dementia.

But I got out and shortly afterwards, I sought psychotherapy--one of the best decisions I've ever made. I remember one of my therapist's statements: "We've got to work on developing you a self." I had been so busy all my life taking care of my mother emotionally when I was a child, and then trying to support my husband and all of his crazy moods. I had spent little time asking myself what I wanted or finding out who I was.

I agree that many of us who were initially horrified at McCain's choice and who have been following these blogs have seen mental illness up close. And we are unwilling to see our country under the control of a crazy person. George W. Bush was bad enough, but even the Dalai Lama thinks he's a nice guy. He may have been a puppet, but he's not crazy. God help save us from a Palin or a Bachmann.

Lidia17

7/17/2011 03:36:09 am

@V ictoria, the bus tour is a perfect example of Sarah's eternal problem where the reality doesn't match up with her fantasy life. Which is why she quits and runs away…

She literally cannot behave any differently, though: her illness impels her to live constantly between a rock and a hard place—needing for others to play out the roles she's designed for them in her mind in order for her life to "work", but then never being satisfied with how the performances turn out. I have a feeling that what's going through Sarah's mind most often is panic, frustration and confusion, more than "hate". Hate would require having a center, I'd think, something to lever off of, an actual personality…

For example, I don't think she hates the media for not worshipping her… she only says she hates the media but I think really she LOVES the media to distraction. She LOVES Obama, that's why she teases him like a schoolgirl to get his attention. She is even attracted Katie Couric, I think. She loves the "delicate, tiny, very talented celebrity starlets" even as she is supposedly trashing them. She loves them and envies them to the point of complete and utter distraction and decompensation.

@PhD, on other sites, I've commented on Sarah's mimicking of Barbara Walters and Oprah. Some people thought it was a poor attempt at sarcasm or a nasty racist dig when Sarah appeared with Nellie-Olsen-style curls and told Oprah that she had done her hair that way in order to "look like you [Oprah]." I think she was having a rare moment of honesty, and that she really was trying (in her own pathetic way) to look like Oprah, with curled hair and a "tasteful" outfit that looked nothing like what Sarah usually wears.

When I saw this photo of Palin with Walters, I looked back at the Oprah scenario with new eyes: http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID22153/images/sarah-palin-barbara-walters-good-morning-america-watch-online-1.jpg

Have you come across this type of mimicry before with subjects like this? I know "my" narcissist has picked up comments of others and presented them as his own—unneccessarily, when there was no advantage in doing so—and that Sarah also picks up things like a magpie, but I was startled to see the Zelig-like overt physical recreation of self.

mumimor

7/17/2011 03:36:09 am

My goodness, Padoreva, it is as if we have lived parallel lives! It feels strangely comforting to know someone else has experienced almost the same.

And thanks everyone, for kind thoughts.

Diane

7/17/2011 04:16:18 am

Her personality type exhausts people and if she has a hint that they deviate from her tunnel vision, she gets rid of them.
Read Blind Allegiance by Frank Baily.
He is an evangelical fox news former employer of Palins. he was with her from the Governor's run till she quit.
He has a very good insight into palin.

One of the telling things for me about palin is her inability to keep good people with her. Her run for every position involves different people. Nobody stays with her for long periods and she brooks no dissent.

PhD.

7/17/2011 06:04:28 am

Lidia17,

I really have to think about this in relation to the narcissist. I think mimicry and the usurping of another's identity is more akin to a sociopath/psychopath and linked to more borderline pathology. Regardless it has to do with blurred and merged boundaries, and not a real good sense of where one ends and another begins. The narcissism is played out in ownership of others-- used as one's "self object" to exploit, abuse or be gratified by.

padoreva

7/17/2011 06:42:01 am

mumimor,
I agree that it is "strangely comforting" to know that someone else has survived the crazy. Remember how popular the word "solidarity" was more than a couple of decades ago?

Solidarity is what I feel coming to this website and Gryphen's. I know a lot of us have been to hell and back, living with mentally unbalanced relatives and spouses.

And it's good to know that so many of us have extricated ourselves from these abusive relationships and have "crazydar" now, the ability to spot these sociopathic and narcissistic personalities.

As with so many of you, my alarms went off the first time I saw video footage of Palin. This person is dangerous, I told myself.

I became obsessed with all the weird stories she told, the things that didn't add up and started reading the blogs incessantly. Palindeceptions, BreePalin and Gryphen became my morning routine, much to the befuddlement of my husband, who thought his wife had gone off the deep end. Now he thanks me for keeping him informed and shares what I discover with other people, who are not closely paying attention to Palin (and Bachmann).

I was and continue to be appalled that the mainstream political media did not see how crazy this woman was--and they still don't, other than a few honest souls. (Thank goodness for Bill Maher.) It seems that Bachmann might be unlikely to get as easy a treatment as Palin has, particularly because of her husband's so-called "practice" and their shared history of intolerance.

So good for you, mumimor, and everyone else who has exited a toxic relationship and has gained the gift of awareness when coming across a psychologically dangerous individual.

rubbernecking

7/17/2011 07:05:59 am

There is no shortage of people who appear successful in professional life but toxic/reckless in personal and family life: Schwarzenegger, Weiner, Clinton, Edwards, and many corporate CEOs, religious leaders, athletes, artists, and so on.

It's rare to hear mental illness as an explanation when a male politician behaves badly in private or abuses his staff. In the case of John Edwards, it was discussed only when he himself confessed to narcissism. (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5559032&page=1).

I have no expertise in mental health issues. But the notion that Palin is uniquely "narcissistic" for a politician or a VP candidate does NOT ring true for me.

I'm sympathetic to those who have shared painful stories here. But I think we need to be careful about assuming too much from these stories. If someone told us Palin reminded him of a family member he admired and, therefore, this meant Palin was trustworthy, who would find this persuasive?

It may be true that those with personal experience with narcissistic individuals were among the first to suspect Palin. But suspecting her story and convincing others are not the same thing.

Leona

7/17/2011 07:39:05 am

Sarah Palin requires a steady diet of naricissistic supply. Unfortunately, she gets it in massive quantities on a daily basis, both negative and positive, from the news media, from her adoring fans, and from her critics. If the narcissistic supply dried up, she would go away. Still a narcissist, but much more limited in the amount of turbulence and chaos she can generate.

Banyan

7/17/2011 08:03:22 am

I've hesitated to post on this topic because my own childhood was a relatively happy one -- unmarred by the narcissism, etc. some of the rest of you have described.

I DID have one wayward sibling who became a Republican and a High Church Episcopalian (we speak of it in hushed tones), but the rest of us had a wholesome Democratic, agnostic upbringing, although we lived in the very deep south.

However, I was on to Sarah from Day One, because I am the actual biological mother of a special needs child whom I actually care for at home. I know what a high-risk pregnancy and birth is like, and I work with many other families in similar situations.

These experiences set my BS detector off big time, when McCain presented her to the country in Aug. 2008

It helped, too, that I know a lot about, and do not trust, Republicans and/or Fundamentalists (having grown up near them).

It matters less to me what we label Sarah's affliction, then that, because of her personality disorder, or despite it, she managed to con a good portion of the America electorate.

I am deeply troubled by the fact that most of the country has bought into her lies, especially people in the MSM who should know better. It's as if the rest of the US had collectively decided that "the sky is green" when, to my eyes, on most days, it looks blue.

Coming here, and to other "Trig truth" blogs, has been quite validating for me. Maybe, I think to myself, I HAVE BEEN right about Palin, and not just going prematurely senile.

The last few days, I must also say, I have greatly enjoyed the opening scenes of "The Fall of the House of Murdoch." It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that Sarah's deceptions are merely part of a much larger (very sinister) International political game.

I just hope it ends well for the reality-based community here, in the UK, and wherever else it leads.

Ottoline

7/17/2011 09:18:08 am

Banyan and rubbernecking: Music to my ears. I too just want her nailed on the lying/hoaxing thing. So that is acknowledged, we acknowledge how this illustrates what a lot of trouble we are in, and we can move on. Let others (later) diagnose her, prosecute her.

I too think that the Murdoch scandal illustrates how the MSM might have been "dissuaded" from covering Palin's negatives. After all, it took courageous Katherine Graham to say YES to Ben Bradlee re going with the Watergate story. Not many KGs around these days.

NSG

7/17/2011 09:57:03 am

@Lidia17, thanks for reminding me about the Oprah & Barbara Walters episodes -- the Oprah thing is even weirder & more shocking in hindsight!

For anyone else who needed a visual, I dug up this link to Palin's curly locks.

Oh my.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/22/palins-hair-shocks-oprah_n_433582.html

DebinOH

7/17/2011 10:02:50 am

What an excellent thread. I certainly had a bizarre childhood in some ways. If my parents said the sky was red you agreed. If they didn't like something, neither did you. You learned to lie just to keep the peace. I still do these things to a point just to get along.

My sister does not and it causes her much frustration. I don't know why it is easier for me. I guess it could destroy you if you really thought about it too much.

The dynamics between Sarah & Todd are interesting. I am not sure that he is such a patsy. I sincerely think he might want her in office for his own personal agenda. Would be interesting to see what goes on behind closed doors.

At any rate, I have enjoyed reading the comments and the post. It is interesting to see that people here have broken they "cycle". I knew everyday that most parents weren't like mine & I swore I would do better. Have I been perfect? I somehow doubt it but I have a great relationship with both my boys (23 & 25).

Now let's just hope I can be a better mother-in-law when the time comes;)

Laura Novak link

7/17/2011 10:32:06 am

I echo that sentiment, Deb - thank you to everyone for this wonderful thread. Many people shared their deeply personal experiences and I think we all benefited from that.

And a special, heart felt thanks to PhD for stopping by this weekend. We all learned from your wisdom and experience and appreciate you sharing it so graciously with us.

People have made the excellent point that we will likely never know precisely what ails this woman. And whatever it is, it's unlikely to be cured or fixed. The bigger issue at hand, then, is to figure out how to keep such people from holding positions of responsibility, especially to the tune of POTUS.

Yet, I agree with most here that hashing out the odd behavior, lies, alarming family dynamics, is a step toward understanding, and hopefully preventing her success on a national level.

Thank you all again. Up next, Brad and I take on Newsweek magazine. Happy end of weekend, everyone!

viola-alex

7/17/2011 10:44:56 am

@rubbernecking: is it so strange that a powerful woman might create political havoc in a different way than a powerful man? Conversely, imagine a father who might thrust his children onto the stage in a way that would make you uneasy. Sarah's behavior is Sarah's behavior. From the beginning, she made me uneasy by the way she treated her daughter in public. Much later she reminded me of my narcissistic mother.

John Edwards lied in 1998 (I think it was) when he ran for Senator of NC and lied and said he'd been born in NC. He was born in SC! It was documented in the local press, but Everybody treated it as a mistake, not a lie. (How can you forget which state you were born in?) So years later, when he lied about his affair, I already knew he was a liar.

If we learn from our own lives-- and by that I mean really learn from our experiences-- we CAN apply that to the larger world. It's studying a micro-system to understand a macro-system as an economist does. Just as Banyan could judge Palin from her experience of her ownmothering of a special needs child.

To condemn Palin without trying to understand her means we doom ourselves to repeating history. Why else do historians study their subjects? If there are signs we can recognize early on that will prevent us from putting a mad man or woman in office, mightn't that be helpful?

7/17/2011 10:55:42 am

Thanks from me, also too, to PhD!
@rubbernecking, have you read Game Change? No shortage of narcissists in the 2008 election, on both sides of the isle! The authors treat both Clintons gently, but still convey the sense that Bill is epic in this regard. I'm trying to get my head around the difference between him and Palin -- apart from the factor of two difference in IQ, he just seems less fundamentally crazy...even with the infidelities, capable of much healthier relationships with other people, and of working towards goals that do not involve self-aggrandizement. One example: Palin went to Haiti once, for about 30 seconds, for a photo op; Clinton has been visiting monthly, more or less, since the earthquake. I've never seen a word about his trips in the press. If Bill Clinton is what NPD looks like, maybe Palin is something else, or something farther out on the pathology spectrum.

PhD.

7/17/2011 11:05:54 am

Laura,

I want to thank you and your readers for graciously hosting me this weekend. I truly appreciate the honesty, insights, hope and vulnerability in many of the posts and have enjoyed the dialogue and exchange. I think there is a take away for all of us from a collaborative thread like this. Thanks again for having me.

Good luck and be well.

Conscious at last!

7/17/2011 11:35:37 am

@rubbernecking:

No one is suggesting that Palin is "uniquely" narcissistic for a politician.

The points explored here are more complex than that.

On the one hand, Palin is profoundly un-self reflective. She is certainly not the only public figure who is a narcissist. She is, however, one of the few,recently, who has been so obviously twisted and who has openly used family members in such a cruel manner. This was all possible because SP cannot see herself clearly.

Finally,(on the other hand) she is handled with kid gloves by the only media that she allows to get near her. Thus, her psychopathy (however we define it) is on display in all its glory for us to see!!

Palin does not have the disciple of a Clinton or enough intelligence to conceal shadow qualities. Palin's psychopathy is layered and complex.
But I can tell you that she is most likely NOT suffering from early onset dementia. She cannot be made into a sympathetic character that way-- she's not a cuddly Ronald Reagan.

rubbernecking

7/17/2011 11:02:11 pm

Again, I acknowledge that others with more knowledge and experience of mental health issues have more insights on this topic.

viola-alex: I *feel* (but don't *know*) that the same behavior is judged differently when done by a man vs a woman.

@jk: I thought "Game Change" unfairly made Elizabeth Edwards appear more narcissistic and unstable than her husband.

@Conscious at last: If Palin is not uniquely narcissistic for a politician, maybe we can agree to use politicians or celebrities as the reference in future discussions. Comparing Palin to unfamous people is distorting.

@Conscious at last: Regarding my question about dementia, this was in another thread. I asked a question about how mental health professionals diagnose the symptom of telling strange lies. Palin's trial testimony seemed very weird to me. Maybe she was worked up about the cross-defense trying to "get her" and just made stupid mistakes. But I was struck that she seemed to make odd errors related to time processing: Trig's age in the Willow photo, Track's deployment in relation to her email hacking, the order of months Aug and Sep. Would a narcissist or serial liar tell a lie that assumes the listener will not understand the order of the months?

Regarding Reagan, his behavior while testifying in the Iran/Contra hearings clearly showed he had problems. The press, his wife, and his administration knew something was wrong. But it was very taboo to discuss the obvious until the Reagans publicly acknowledged his Alzheimer's years after he left office.

rubbernecking

7/17/2011 11:57:24 pm

It's a little spooky sometimes how frequently I find myself stumbling to articulate something, give up, and then have a Eureka moment on Andrew Sullivan's blog.

In a post completely unrelated to Palin, they linked to a 2009 BBC article by a person mistaken for Michael Phelphs during the Chinese Olympics. The author writes:

********************
How many of us know what sort of person we would become if we were in the position of Michael Phelps - or Tiger Woods for that matter - with people screaming your name everywhere you go?

Would you stay grounded? Would you even be able to stay focused on your job? Most of us can only imagine what it would be like to be that well known and have our every move examined by the media and the public.
********************

Read the rest here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/steveparry/2009/12/me_and_michael_phelps.shtml

This is why I think we need to compare Palin to people who actually achieve some type of public success: because the perception of success actually changes how other people will treat you.

lilly lily

7/18/2011 12:36:49 am

The problem is that many people equate notoriety (publicity in the negative at times) and making a bundle of money from that notoriety with worth. Money+ exposure in the public eye=The American Dream. T.V. has debased the vast unthinking publics perceptions.

The mindless and undiscerning feed on publicity. It always was the case, but more so now.

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