The Universe is Expanding

12/3/2011

Since the last thread got going on Woody Allen, I thought it a great time to bring a fun weekend convo over here. How do I count the scenes that I love best from his movies? Not to mention his books. We watched the documentary on Allen recently on PBS. Jew Max? Loved having his childhood and life fleshed out a bit by his sister and Louise Lasser. Though I do recall learning some of that, and more, much more as you'll recall, from Mia Farrow's memoir. In our house, we can cite, verbatim, so many scenes from his movies. Perhaps Love and Death being our all time favorite. So, give us your best lines. One, two, one two ("three comes next if you're wondering.")

Ottoline

12/3/2011 07:08:31 am

I've loved lots of Woody Allen movies and lines, but I'm troubled by the pedophile issue, esp after we have been thinking so much about it re Penn State. I haven't read much about the Allen-Farrow issues, until today. Laura, I wonder if this 9-yr-old VF article

http://tinyurl.com/3jqv9ku

is what you concluded after reading Mia Farrow's memoir plus any response from Woody? I see that the son Ronan who has just been honored with a major scholarship is still steering away from Woody.

Re the Penn State issues, I've been thinking that it's not really about Sandusky (there are always bad people in our midst) but about what society does to contain the evils that routinely appear within it. So I feel really ill at ease praising Woody's admittedly charming, witty movies and lines when his apparent pedophilia (esp re his daughter Dylan) is the elephant in the room at this point. At least for me.

Tom

12/3/2011 09:22:48 am

For chrissakes is everyman a pedophile now. I don't tgrust one fucking word that comes out of anyone's mouth anymore. Who said he was a pedophile? Mia? Fuck her.

Tom

12/3/2011 09:29:18 am

Posters already unjustly crucified Joe Paterno. Now, my girl Ottoline is turning on my favorite, Woody Allen. I hate this fuckin' world.

Sue Paterno Speaks Out!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Per Twitter:

@johnclarknbc10
John Clark NBC10
Joe Paterno is at cancer center in state college getting treatment. Sue Paterno tells NBC "the truth will come out in court."

@johnclarknbc10
John Clark NBC10
Sue Paterno tells NBC "You all (press) made him (Joe) guilty before anything came out, and it started with the Times (NY Times)."

Sherryn

12/3/2011 11:59:54 am

I think Ottoline brings up some valid points, the vanity fair article DOES show some very strange behavior on Woody Allen's side, but it is biased toward Mia Farrow's side. Mia was Soon Yi's age when she married Frank Sinatra, Mia not only defended Roman Polanski after he raped a 13 year old, but offered to act in one of his movies as a sign of solidarity.
As a woman and mother, they both made some poor decisions, and I'd have divorced my spouse if he acted the way Woody did with Dylan.

There's a thin line between genius and insanity, I'm not condoning Woody's Actions, and I'm not excusing it by saying the following;

Woody Allen's writing, directing, and acting, especially his romantic comedies, are rich, well written, and his comedy is among the best. How they found that actor in the clip is beyond me, he looks exactly like I would imagine Woody looked like as a young boy.

Tom

12/3/2011 12:07:00 pm

"Life is divided into the horrible and the miserable." Woody

"My feelings about death haven't changed. I'm strongly against it."

"I got thrown out of college for cheating on a metaphysics exam. I got caught looking into the soul of the boy next to me.

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Woody_Allen

Ottoline

12/3/2011 12:21:26 pm

Tom, Tom -- I'm betting you are a fan of Woody's manufactured persona, as I am. The real man is different. We've always known that, no? But we don't know the real man, most of us.

Did you read the VF article? It's not the nebbishy Woody who created all those films and made all that money: it's the REAL Allen S. Konigsberg who did that, and **perhaps** most of what was sworn to in court against him. By Mia and others. The 2 naked photos are a big problem if one wants to believe in Woody's innocence.

More interesting to me than whether Woody was or wasn't is how should one treat someone who is suspected, with what seems to be good reason, to have done a grievous wrong. Innocent until proven guilty, but would you leave your daughter alone with OJ Simpson before the verdict? Would you wait until there's a judicial decision to take the word of an abuse victim?

I too cooled on Woody at the time all this happened. I confess I was delighted to watch that clip of the end of Annie Hall last night. And other clips. How should we treat our delight in his work if his art is great but he is not?

I pretty much believed Mia when it happened. I have never heard a successful defense of Allen Konigsberg's actions.

With Paterno, I was stunned by the Sandusky lawyer's interview -- how innocent he makes Sandusky sound. That's why I asked earlier if anyone else had a response to that video. The scenario presents itself that S is perhaps innocent! And that's why no one did much! And that's why Paterno used the term "witch hunt" twice. And that the various folks who are ready to testify are a sham. A hideous frame to wreck the Univ by some evil genius.

Or not. Or guilty, as we thought earlier.

http://tinyurl.com/73m78u3

Tom

12/4/2011 12:26:40 am

I know who Allen Konigsberg is. Mia is a 'woman scorned'. This is the same woman that married Sinatra when she was 21. Frank was 50. That's a 29 yr. dufference in age. Oh, I know, b ut he was Sinatra. B.S. Maybe she's aout of whack.

I'm sick of all these one-sided arguments, finger pointing based on innuendo. Photos don't tell the whole story. All these things are out of context but the VF people don't give a shite. It's Woody. Let's take him down. What's Mia's motive. Revenge. I don't know. Granted, it was a little strange when he married (or even had an intimate relationship with) his adopted daughter. It's also very weird for a 21 year old woman to marry a 50 yr. old man. I know, but he's Sinatra. Bullshite.

Mia may have fell on her head a little too hard early on. I've not read or heard anything notoious about Woody other than the very questionable VF piece and the odd marriage. Where's Diane Keaton's and Louise Lasser's and Scarlett Jo's and Dianne Weiess's et al reports of Woody's aberrant behavior. He was intiumate with two of them. He's casted some of the biggest names in Hollywood and no one else has come forth. Mia, only MIa. Woody resurrected her career. Directed and wrote her to awards (Farrow sucked big time as Daisy Buchanan but then so did Redford as Gatsby, as an aside). Maybe Mia's had a few too many granola bars. Maybe Woody found out that Mia's mother, Maureen O'Sullivan, not only banged Weismuller but got it on with Cheeta as well. She had a fetish. It's true. There you go.

FrostyAK

12/4/2011 04:29:08 am

To lighten things up a bit. The macro universe is expanding. If that is so, then the micro universe must be expanding as well - with the spaces between electrons, neutrons and other small particles getting ever larger.

Is that the cause of the obesity epidemic in Amerika? Did fast food cause ALL of the expansion in the universe?

And on the not so light side: Me, I'm sick of insufferable know it all's (bullies) who are never wrong about any topic. And who try to make damned sure everyone knows they are never wrong. Sounds kinda like the set in stone doctrines of the fundies, don'tcha think?

Ottoline

12/4/2011 04:41:39 am

Tom! Stop!! I did not call W a pedophile, I said he had a pedophile issue. He does. Of his own making. Not mine. Per court documents. Not just the Soon Yi marriage but his behavior with Dylan. Which you are in clear denial about. ***Per court documents.*** An all-too-common reaction to such issues.

Did you even read the VF account? Don't you see that you're doing the denial thing right out of the box, just like everyone does with such icky issues. Farrow did not invent the two photos of her daughter with legs parted and naked vagina exposed that she found in W's apartment -- two weeks after W had adopted the two children that Mia (alone) had adopted earlier, and before Mia knew of any sexual relationship between Soon Yi and Woody. He might not have been a great father (by his own statement in court docs), but he was accepting the role of father by persuing these adoptions. Prodigy son Ronan was just quoted as having a problem with his bioDad sleeping with his sister. That's why there are rules against it, even with adopted family members: it hurts a family.

Did you realize that Soon Yi is learning-disabled? That sure affects making a parallel between Mia's behavior at 20 and Soon Yi's at 20. Soon Yi's hideous life before adoption at 7 also makes it hard to compare the two at 20.

There is no question that there are ISSUES. Sworn to in court. Irrelevant whether Mia was a woman scorned or not, the worst person in the world or not. The behavior is Woody's. The photos are Woody's. Blaming the victim(s) does not change Woody's behavior.

The question, which I posed earlier, is the old "do we focus only on the artist's work, or does his life's statement also matter?" Many people say "look only at the work." That is a valid stsnce, but one I cannot do. (I used to take this stance, but after hearing the stories of V-A and others in the last few years, I see it differently now.) The artist's personal qualities matter to me, when they are extreme. Just like the big-time role-model athlete's do.

Surely you see that bringing Mia's mother into it in such an ugly way is nothing more than an ad hominem attack, irrelevant to Woody's behavior, and that gets us nowhere, except angry.

Ottoline

12/4/2011 04:51:26 am

Frost AK: You are right about the universe expanding. I just realized: that explains my wrinkles and droops as I age. Do you think the the fancy anti-wrinkle creams can stop the universe from expanding? I have put all my hopes on that, so pls advise ASAP.

Re our discussion here: to me, it seem the classic blame-the-victin denial of the icky situation. So it seems worth discussing to me. Because to take Woody's side, or to effectively forget it, is to deny the victim(s) position of having been taken advantage of. Makes it a consequence-free set of acts by Woody.

Is it possible Woody could be innocent of all charges? If yes, the naked photo needs an explanation, and so does all the poor behavior with Dylan over the years, which remains supported by under-oath statements and never rebutted by any others.

Laura Novak

12/4/2011 05:30:50 am

What was intended as a fun "let's recollect our favorite Woody quotes" has turned in to an F Bomb delight. Tom, take it down a few notches or take a hike.

Playing hall monitor is not may favorite pass time, especially with all I have to do.

I saw Woody and Soon Yi at a party in NYC 14 years ago. She had Pippy Longstocking braids in her hair and a little girl dress. It was very strange. No, I didn't get to talk to him.

I really enjoyed Mia Farrow's memoir for many reasons. As a piece of writing, her voice is very strong and unique. It carried the story. The better part of the book is spent on the Woody years and the family turmoil.

To that end, I once rode the same bus as her up CPW. She had two of the kids with her. This was when I was in college and before the fall out.

What I found interesting in the documentary on him is that he spoke highly of Mia as an artist and did not belittle her or not speak about her b/c of the controversy. He also said that everyone is entitled to their own opinion of him and her allegations and that people would either continue to see his movies or not and that that was entirely up to them.

Meantime, sounds like Alvie was trying to get out of doing his homework.

Ottoline

12/4/2011 07:24:46 am

Homework: yes! Hahaha. That idea completely escaped me when I first saw this. Also, I now see more clearly that "Brooklyn is NOT expanding." Dr. Flicker's disgusting laugh still gets me. The mothers, incl Grammy Hall, are way more sympathetic characters to me now.

Jo link

12/4/2011 08:02:06 am

Ottoline and Laura, I really admire how both of you are able to respond calmly, logically, and without rancor when things get 'wacky' in the comments. It is a wonderful ability and probably a necessary one if you host a blog or comment frequently. So, thank you both.

Laura Novak

12/4/2011 08:42:17 am

Thanks, Jo! I appreciate that.

FrostyAK

12/4/2011 09:19:52 am

Want something to really get knickers in a twist about?

Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/ckm8nyq

Tom

12/4/2011 09:35:21 am

http://www.gamesareforchildren.com/index.php?/archives/409-Joe-Paterno-and-why-I-will-never-be-a-teacher.html#extended

Ottoline

12/4/2011 10:50:34 am

Jo--You are too kind. Thank you. But I didn't think things got that wacky. In fact, our conversation seemed to me to have amazing connections to the earlier conversations here.

Tom's attack on Mia and her Mom is exactly what happens when women/children complain about abuse. The old "blame the victim," "she asked for it," etc.

Ad hominem attacks ("like 'fuck Mia' ") bother me mostly because they convey only hostility, not any info at all re the reasons for that hostility. Simply vulgar. Not informative re a point of view. We've seen a lot of that in both the Penn State and Palin comments.

The old "you are entitled to your own opinion" vs "you are not entitled to make up or ignore facts" also came into play.

The existence of photo evidence that tells all sure reminds me of the PalinHoax, and of people not accepting that photo evidence.

The two sets of values ("just judge the art, not the artist," vs "it's hard to trust even the art of a creepy person") come up a lot too. And certainly did for me when Laura asked us to celebrate Woody's work in a lighthearted way, which I can no longer do, I just realized, even though I do love his wit.

It's all there in the Penn State issues, too. I'm on the fence now, entertaining the idea that S was innocent all the way -- after seeing that video of S's lawyer defending S. But I'm also entertaining the idea that S is guilty and in denial, as are others. I guess we'll soon know more.

Anyway. How about this for an odd wrinkle: look at any recent photo of Satchell Ronan Farrow. He sure looks like a combo of Farrow and Sinatra. But I'd be the first to say you can't tell by looks. Versus "You can observe a lot by looking." Sigh. What does it all mean? "Beats me," as the abused wife said when asked why she does not dump her bad husband.

Ivyfree

12/4/2011 11:54:38 pm

Can we consider the fact that pedophiles are in charge of their own behavior and typically do what they can to ensure that they are not caught? Honestly, I do not blindly accept a statement from a wife. There are too many adults who say, "She knew, and she did nothing." Typically because the wives are trained into helplessness by the abusive spouse, and knowing their children are molested and doing something about it are two different things. The effort to gather up one's kids and get away from the abuser, particularly when public opinion is typically "lying b****," is just too much for them.

I've heard wives deny that their husbands beat them or abuse their children. I've heard wives deny that their husbands are having affairs. I don't believe spouses "just because."

V-A

12/5/2011 01:05:31 am

I believe it is in the dna of many men to lust after very young girls. After all, we're programmed to procreate, for the survival of the species, and who better to pick for the act than a young girl? But an honorable, healthy man accepts the rules of his society, and abides by them. Most soccer dads don't have sex with their team players. (Although I know two h.s. football coaches who married 17 yr old students. But,hey, that's TX.)

In no society that I know of is it acceptable to have sex with your daughter. We complicate that by adopting children (who are not our blood) but I believe we would all agree that it is morally wrong, to have sex with one's adopted child. IT's wrong for the child, and it's wrong for the family, even a family as kinky as the Farrow/Allen one was.

What Woody Allen did was wrong. What Roman Polanski did is wrong. Both men argued that the sex was consensual, which is what all pedophiles do. The child made me do it.

Listen to Jerry Sandusky. Does any man you know like to cavort in showers with other people's boys? (If so, I'd keep my son away.) He's so delusional about his own activities that he thinks his explanation is VALID!

Pedophiles prey on children, because someone once preyed on them. They are stuck in the loop, retelling the story over and over and over.

V-A

12/5/2011 01:19:50 am

I loved MANHATTAN. I saw it when I was 27 and living in NYC. It was the perfect homage to the city I loved. The opening scenes are absolute genius.

What was also genius was casting 6 ft tall Mariel Hemingway to play the 17 yr old girlfriend. Taller, heavier than Allen, we believe she is powerful, mature. Her droll, deadpan (Western) voice is wise. What Allen did was create a child we'd let him fuck.

He'd done that already in Annie Hall. Diane Keaton was ust a goofy kid in a woman's body.

Since Allen married his daughter, I boycotted his films. But I saw Midnight in Paris. It's an old man's film. I liked it. No sex. And Owen Wilson is so much nicer to look at than Allen.

Ottoline

12/5/2011 01:39:32 am

Last night I watched "mighty Aphrodite," a WA film I didn't know existed,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nV1O9mVEE&feature=related

and it again had its points (loved the little tricks of the Greek chorus), was a fun film in many ways, but again the weird sexual premise: sex with the formerly unknown mother of one's adopted child, who is a hooker and porn star. That premise would not bother me, if we didn't take it seriously, but WA's life gives it a sick twist.

12/5/2011 01:42:13 am

I stopped watching his movies when he married his daughter. I don't think I heard about the nude pictures before. Ugh. Frankly, as a Southerner, it took me a long time to understand his NYC/Jewish humor anyway. I had to ask my companion at Annie Hall why the pastrami with mayo on white bread was funny. I'm most likely to quote lines from Airplane: "I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue;" or June Cleaver's "Excuse me stewardess, I speak jive."

Ottoline

12/5/2011 02:01:10 am

Yes we are programmed to procreate, just as we are programmed to eat. But that does not mean we can eat inappropriately. I have always laughed at the "I have needs!" argument. We ALL have needs (let's not even discuss "needs vs wants"!). But that doesn't mean that as complex a being as a human can act like s/he is an amoeba. Well, ok, they CAN (and do), but we have to say NO when we see that happening. Like with WA. Again, it's not so much about the abuser (because there will always be bad people) as about what we do to stop evil behavior that routinely appears in a society. (More routinely than I formerly thought.)

Laura Novak

12/5/2011 02:32:35 am

Now there you go, I've been sitting here for 15 minutes watching Mighty Aphrodite clips.

So yes, there's genius there. But there is also a screw loose when you read Farrow's memoir, for example. The allegations were broader and yet narrower than just the Soon Yi photos. By that I mean the stuff that allegedly went on was so much more extensive, but also strangely public in the home and narrow in its focus.

I can see both sides of this argument about him, his art, these accusations and the damage done to the family. I too agree that nature wants to take over all the time, but that without rules and self-regulating, we cannot possibly function as a society. We simply stop ourselves from pursuing something with a friend's husband or whatever the scenario.

Tom

12/5/2011 02:59:40 am

You figure it out. Allen, Farrow, Sinatra, Previn, Soon-Yi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_Becomes_Electra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_complex

From VF 12/05:

Recalling his assertion that he would make the same mistakes all over again, I ask if this is true regarding Farrow. “I’m sure there are things that I might have done differently,” he replies, soberly. “Probably in retrospect I should have bowed out of that relationship much earlier than I did.”

“You must have discussed your problems with the relationship in your therapy.”

“I did. I was a chronic whiner in therapy about everything in my life. I did certainly whine about that. I did.”

“What do you think would have happened had you not left those pictures of Soon-Yi on the mantel?”

“I don’t know. But it was just one of the fortuitous events, one of the great pieces of luck in my life.”

“Didn’t Freud say there’s no such thing as luck? It was either intentional or one of the most flagrant Freudian slips in the history of the world.”

“Right. Although Freud also said that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

“Or sometimes nude pictures are just nude pictures?”

“I feel this is a case of a cigar being a cigar. It was a turning point in my life for the better.”

He answers every question readily, without blinking or dodging, his eyes unwavering behind his trademark glasses with their emphatic black frames. I ask if he ever sees his and Farrow’s children.

“No, no.”

“How do you feel about that?”

“Well, I feel terrible about it. I spent millions of dollars and fought in court for years to do it, but could not swing it."

@Ottoline--There are things much more vulgar than the F-word (as it's typically used for emphasis).

Irony:

A New Jersey grand jury dismissed a charge of aggravated assault against Penn State University quarterback Rashard Casey on Tuesday.

Terry Hull, first assistant prosecutor for Hudson County, said the grand jury released a vote of `no bill,` meaning Casey was cleared of the charge. Police charged Casey and another man, Desmond Miller, with second-degree aggravated assault after a fight outside a Hoboken, N.J., bar in May.

com/Buick
The grand jury Tuesday voted to indict Miller, a former high school football teammate of Casey's, on the charge of third-degree assault. Hull said his office would pursue the case against Miller.

But the grand jury found no probable cause to indict Casey or remand the case to municipal court on a lesser charge, Hull said. He added that the matter against Casey is closed.

`After a fair and impartial presentation before the grand jury, Rashard was totally exonerated,` said Dennis McAlevy, Casey's attorney. `My faith and (Penn State coach ) Joe Paterno's faith in Rashard have been rewarded.`

Neither Casey nor Paterno was available for comment Tuesday. Casey was at practice when the grand jury's report was announced.

`There's nothing for them to say,` said Jeff Nelson, Penn State sports information director. `From Day 1, Coach and Rashard both maintained his innocence.`

Paterno has backed his quarterback, a fifth-year senior, since his first public statement in July, when he said Casey would play until `something convinces me otherwise.` Two weeks ago, Paterno made his strongest comments to date in support of Casey.

`Deep down in my gut, I don't think he did it,` Paterno said. `We are assuming that Rashard is innocent because that is what I think. He will play the season that way."

Ottoline

12/5/2011 04:45:06 am

Tom: I agree, many things are **more** vulgar. That does not contradict my saying any ad hominem attack is vulgar. It's not even the use of any specific term -- one could just as well say "Damn Mia" (or even "darn"!) and convey the same amount of zero info as to why one is angry with her, or should be. Although the less polite (more vulgar) the verb, the more we are supposed to think you mean it, but we still have no info re why. That's why it's a waste of time.

Tom

12/5/2011 10:10:25 am

@Ottoline--What seems ad himinem is reall y a dismissal of Mia. The crap I made up about her mother was a way of conveying, in a ridiculous way I admit, how crap is sometimes crap. You and Mia take exception to Woody's photos. Woody views (see above)it differently ("fortuitous"). Mia accused him of sexual abuse. Woody denies it. You choose to believe her. I choose to enjoy Woody with tyhe knowledge that sometimes good people do bad things but that what he did or did not do is beyond my ken. Farrow has a history of much older men as lovers. Pursue that. Electra complex? I don't know. Maybe. Eugene O'Neill took it up in his play (see above). Was he wasting his time?

Tom

12/5/2011 11:18:02 am

Laura's Red Flops now in the news-- sexual abuse in the locker room. Has to be true. Get ESPN on this stat. Oh, that's right. ESPN is the enabling network.

Sad state of affairs all the way around. Pleasse excuse my sarcasm as it isn't intended to diminish the damage or its seriousness. I'm just satisfying my need to ridicule the hypocrites.

http://entertainment.verizon.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9RED2S01%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1013

Tom

12/5/2011 11:50:20 am

This is an article by a man who was close to Joe Paterno. It's surprisingly objective and worth reading if you care to better understand the culture in State College, PA and University Park.

http://www.statecollege.com/news/columns/penn-state-football-cofounder-of-coachpaternocom-offers-his-views-952476/

Sherryn

12/5/2011 11:54:23 am

I was surfing youtube and can't believe how much of Woody's work I had forgotten.

Hearing about Mia's book has piqued my curiosity.
This clip, one short WA snippet, is one I've always loved. He makes me think of serious issues and adds the "Twist" that makes me think deeper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3OYSVpycY&feature=related

Ottoline

12/5/2011 12:17:03 pm

Sherryn--the part I've always loved in this clip is him pushing "Death in Venice" upon Annie instead of a book of cat pictures. I guess we have all missed whopper clues like that in our beginning relationships, only to remember them later, when it's too late.

B--the cat book is just like the mayo and wonder bread. Hilarious if you notice it (in real life, I mean), but who notices when you are in love?

I'm really glad this post got me to look at a lot of old clips. It reminds me what a huge body of work, and that Woody and the real man are not the same.

I'm also trying to think about other artists whose real life has caused me to turn away from them, after initially loving their work. I come up with Lillian Hellman, whose work I just inhaled as fast as I could, and then began to see it in a whole different way, due to LH's falsification of the Julia story. I just could never read her with pleasure again, not even her late-life cookbook.

My father and I were reading "The Painted Bird" by Jerszy Kozinnsky, and after about 40 pages my father said "he's a liar." I didn't see it, but we discussed it at length. Then I read the reviews of the book and saw that the literary community had come to the same conclusion many years after the book was published.

I guess it's just the trust issue -- just like with the PalinHoax.

mistah charley, ph.d.

12/5/2011 08:47:37 pm

Sherryn - I have never seen Annie Hall, and the clip you posted makes me want to see it. I have read one of the books he's pushing - "The Denial of Death" by Ernest Becker - a very good book. As for Woody's dichotomy, "the horrible and the miserable", it reminds me that Freud once said the goal of psychoanalysis was to transform great suffering into ordinary unhappiness.

Ottoline mentions "The Painted Bird" by Kosinski - he is a good example of a falsifier whose real life would make one want to turn away from his literary work - see the Wikipedia article on him. In my own life, I "inhaled" Robert A. Heinlein's juvenile science fiction novels when I was a juvenile - as I get a picture in my late adulthood of what he was like personally my attitude toward him has become much more ambivalent, although I recently reread one of his best books ("Citizen of the Galaxy") with pleasure.

And speaking of painted birds and of cat books, let me strongly recommend "Why Paint Cats" and its follow-up "Why Cats Paint".

Tom

12/6/2011 12:09:54 am

I try to focus more on the work and less on the worker. Kosinski may have been a fraud and a plagiarizer. I like the work, read about a half dozen of his novels. I especially liked 'Being There'. Does 'Painted Bird' have no value just because it may not have been written by Kosinski? Likewise Shakespeare?

Things aren't always as they seem. Richard Cory "put a bullet through his head." Who do we really know? Appreciate the painting, the poem.

Ottoline

12/6/2011 01:08:26 am

I gave my WWII survivor father "The Painted Bird" to read a few yrs ago. As we know, it is the story of a teenage boy's survival among adverse WWII circumstances and cruel people. I didn't know the details when we started the book.

I asked my father what made him think it was falsified, esp in the first 40 pp? He pointed to K's description of the forest, like the way birch trees reacted to various conditions. K had the tiny details all wrong, my father said, so then he continued his reading with more skepticism and found more to question, and then had no interest in finishing it because he felt the writer was duping him. So Tom, K's is not an eyewitness account, as it semi-claims to be. It is fiction, and not even written by one who was in such situations. Like Lillian Hellman, K strongly implied (but coyly did not state) that he was the hero of his fictional story, performing heroic acts and cleverly evading fatal danger. To one who had actually done those things, it was obvious BS. Obvious in the first 40 pp, to my astonishment. To the New York literary world, it was a thrilling story (at least for many years). And when the truth oozed out over the years and finally attained critical mass, many (but not all, like you Tom) felt cheated.

My father might have had some extra sensitivity on this subject, because when he came to the U.S. in 1949, he found that his liberal academic-professional neighbors felt they knew far more about WWII issues than he did. They liked communismn, thought Stalin was not so bad, passed a fast judgmental brush over nations they felt had collaborated with Hitler, and generally insulted and rejected his personal knowledge of WWII. An example is the post-WWII pressure the Allies put on the vast sea of displaced people in Europe to return to their (now communist) countries of origin, assuring them that their fears of Siberia or certain death upon return were unfounded. Luckily, the Displaced Person grapevine/network operated effectively, and that is why I am alive today.

Just wanted to write this little tribute to my late father, who hated lying.

Ottoline

12/6/2011 02:04:59 am

Thanks for the Paint Cats treat, mistah charley! If you look halfway down this link, there is a sweet piece by one of my fave SFComical columnists, Jon Carroll, who writes often and well about his cats, with many keen and witty observations:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/arts/paintedcats.asp

Laura Novak

12/6/2011 02:14:00 am

I recall being riveted by JK's "memoir." And of course the movie Julia. And then we learn that all is not as it has been told to us. Same with Woody. How could all of that have happened with this brilliant man? And what do we do with that knowledge? I respect everyone's decision to view his art and work differently after all of this came to light.

My son's favorite line, among SO many, is from Play It Again Sam: "I love the rain. It washes memories off the sidewalk."

Tom

12/6/2011 03:15:38 am

Laura, viewing someone's work differently because they've rightly/wrongly been accused of something despicable doesn't change the value of the art.

Think of your favorite painting or poem. Does the painter/author really matter beyond admiration/respect? Now if I found out tomorrow that Hemingway was a closeted homosexual I might view his work with a fresh eye, but the words would still be the words.

Ottoline brought up Lillian Hellman. I enjoyed a compilation of her short stories. The one I liked most was titled 'Pentimento'. I understood pentimento to mean something like original thought as with a painter and their canvas--the work evolved, changed. Loved that story and I don't care if Dashiell Hammett wrote it for her (if they even knew each other then).

I've avoided watching the documentary 'Inside Job'. You may have noticed that I get angry fairly easily--not healthy. Going through some channels last night and there it was. The title didn't register at first--sounded bank heistish (if you can find an obscure movie named 'Silent Partner' rent it and watch it--very very good with Christopher Plummer and Elliot Gould). Clicked on the description and there it was, the doc I wanted to avoid. Watched it and took it pretty stoically. What got me most was the disingenuousnes of the academics. Man oh man. And the real reason I brought this up is to recommend Jane Smiley's novel, 'Moo' (the 'Inside Job' academics reminded me of it). Doesn't sound like much but it's funny and smart and has as one of its narratives a a professor who smugly sells out for $$$. Roundabout, I know.

Laura Novak

12/6/2011 03:51:08 am

Thanks, Tom, for further links. I too have avoided that documentary and feel I should watch it one day. I'll let you know if and when I do!

Laura Novak

12/6/2011 04:18:04 am

A doctor friend just sent me this. Glad to read it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/12/02/the-bomb-buried-in-obamacare-explodes-today-halleluja/

V-A

12/6/2011 06:51:46 am

Ottoline: thank you for the tribute to your father. It takes courage to live with truth, when people around you choose not to. All children deserve a father like him.

Tom: I've struggled with that question, if I can love the art and hate the artist.I've forgiven alot from artists whose work I admire. But I can't forgive crimes against children and family. I won't abide lying, cheating, or plagiarism.

Woody Allen marrying his daughter may have nothing to do with his art. However, I can choose not to give him money. But yes, I can judge him.

When the writer Louise Erdich's husband Michael Dorris committed suicide amid rumors that he had abused his adopted children and their daughter, I found her response to the allegations puzzling and cold. I barely remember now, but it was something along the lines that he was dead and she would not pursue the truth about him. I could never read one of her books again. It seemed so irresponsible, so cowardly.

But that's just me. And I know it's from my own history. How can I trust the words of a person I can't trust?

eclecticsandra

12/6/2011 07:53:01 am

I think it is important to separate the art from the artist. I'm thinking of how much music the Germans lost when Jewish composers couldn't be used. Also there was the black-listing in Hollywood in the 50's because of political leanings. Ingmar Bergen was boycotted because of a child out of marriage. There has been the practice of hiding homosexuality with studio publicity (think Rock Hudson). I'm sure there are many more examples.

Conscious at last!

12/6/2011 08:13:12 am

@ V-A

Erdrich was one of my favorite writers. Her last novel, Shadow Tag, is really about her own life and dysfunctional marriage. I couldn't finish it and I don't think I will be able to read her stuff again either. I have to ask myself why? I think I get frustrated when folks that I thought were "evolved" turn out to be.........human!

"Famous" folks are just as screwed up as the rest of us-- I guess that's the lesson. It took me many years to understand this. Now it seems obvious.

Much of our discussion of folks in the news involves our own projections. Sometimes we can just "see" their stuff "ooze" across the photo or screen-- right?

As for Woody Allen - I find his endless use of extreme "NY-Jew stereo-typing" really tiring. I am originally a NY Jew, I get the jokes, but they are the same shtick, over and over... boring.

Tom

12/6/2011 08:19:39 am

How many of you women own or have owned a diamond? How many of you still wear diamonds?

I could go on and on. Clothes/shoes made with slave labor--they're all over your bodies. A philanthropist you might admire, how did that person acquire wealth?

Viola, forget plagiarism for a moment. Lying and cheating is life. It's what people do--all the time. All the time.

Laura Novak

12/7/2011 01:38:52 am

Electricsandra, great examples of people who did not wrong and those who "did" by societies standards at the time. As with WA, time moved on and people began to overlook or forget the scandal. When the hotness of the story evaporated, for many it was as if the original allegations did too. What do we know of his life today? And the relationship he has with his current children? We cannot know. Does boycotting his work impact their lives? I don't know. But I do believe everyone must vote with their pocketbook when it comes to furthering an artist's career.

And Concsious, I think that the projection was in full force with the way many of us viewed Palin. And the way folks view Obama's race or gays in the military. Something lights up in us mentally: a familiar (ie resonating) love or hate. Something in our past. Something we want or desire and can't have. Or something we see through b/c we recognize it's phoniness. Any of 'em, all of 'em.

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